So, a little over a week ago, I went out for what I thought would be a routine business lunch at a local country club. It was my first meeting with this particular contact, but nothing in our phone conversations indicated that we would be discussing anything other than products and pricing. Instead, I wound up sitting there for two hours, having one of the most fun religion conversations I’ve ever had with a Christian.
We managed to stay on topic for a while, but then he asked me why we left New York. While it’s certainly not the primary reason, September 11 is always a part of the answer to that question. He started explaining his thoughts on the causes of Muslim terrorism, but he left out one fairly important little detail… Islam. He was talking about the desperation of poverty as the sole cause for terrorism. I pointed out that religion could not be excluded from this conversation, and that faith invariably leads to violence. I used Richard Reid and Eric Rudolph as examples of citizens of affluent nations who became terrorists because of religion. At this point, ignoring Eric Rudolph entirely, he launched into the 24 hour news networks’ party line talking points about Islam being a religion of peace. I’ve had about all I can take of this from the media mynah birds running around our society avoiding thought and attempting to sound informed by simply repeating whatever Wolf Blitzer or some other talking head tells them as loudly and frequently as they can. I asked him if he’d read the Qur’an; he had not. With a triumphant tone in his voice, he asked if I had read the Bible.
“Three times.”
“Oh,” he said, “I’m on my second time through.”
It was at this point that I informed him he was picking a fight with a heavyweight. He was unintimidated by my religion major, so we continued. I spoke of an Episcopalian friend of mine, and he volunteered that he too was an Episcopalian. After I got in a quick, snide comment about Henry VIII, he asked about my background. I told him I was raised Roman Catholic.
“But you’re not one anymore?”
“No, I’m an atheist.”
That’s usually the end of this type of conversation, but he pressed on. He asked me the difference between an atheist and an agnostic.
“An agnostic is an atheist who’s afraid that god’s going to be pissed off if he’s wrong,” I quipped, and then dealt seriously with the question. It was my certainty that god does not exist that he couldn’t deal with. I explained that not believing in something is the default position and that I have found no compelling evidence that god exists. He assured me that the evidence is everywhere.
Then we started the scripture phase. He started throwing out passages (mostly NT). While he consistently made good arguments (considering), he was a poor speaker, and he became frustrated that I was finishing most of his points for him whilst he hemmed and hawed. Then it was my turn to use the Bible. I started asking how he could believe in and love a god that did such awful things, citing many of the passages I used in the erstwhile God is a Dick series. As is typical, he hid behind metaphor and did his best to avoid discussing the OT.
Then we talked about good and evil. Unlike many members of more extreme churches, he readily admitted that Christianity is not a prerequisite for being a good person. His position is that some people really need Christ to find the way, while others find it on their own. I am a naturally good person. That’s not just my claim; he said he could see it in my aura! I don’t recall the Book of Auras, but I may have to brush up on that. Anyway, he said he had been living a wicked life, and that he was turning to religion to be as good a person as I am. He said he trusted me, and that he could tell me anything. I had no idea yet what that would mean, but keep reading.
“So,” I said “if I can be a good person without Jesus, and good people go to heaven, what would happen if I died today?” Well, as it turns out, there’s a catch. He said that Jesus would come to see me and that he would understand my doubts. Jesus would then ask me to accept him, and I would get into heaven if I did so. I’m sure you’re all thinking the same thing I was. “What, then, is the use of faith?” I don’t know about you, but if Jesus showed up and gave me some proof of his existence and power, I’d go back to church in a second. If you died, and Jesus asked you personally to believe in him, you’d have to be a total jackass to say no. So, where does faith come in? We talked about Paul, and how he had no need of faith. We talked about Thomas, and how he demonstrated a total lack of faith. We talked about Francis and how the little fleshy nail heads on his palms pretty much removed all doubt. Well, as it turns out, my associate also had no need for faith.
So far, he had been impressing me. I had never before met (in person) a Christian so capable of competently defending his faith. His skills as an apologist were admirable. However, never confuse smart with sane. I find more and more in life that if one constructs a Venn diagram of the two, the shaded area is far smaller than expected. He then told me that he had had a personal encounter with Jesus.
I nearly got up to leave, but I had to hear this one. He told me about a time when he was a very young child. He was in bed at night, alone in the dark. Satan™ had come to claim his soul.
“Did you see him?”
“No, but it was him.”
So far this doesn’t exactly stand up in court, but he continued. He called out to Jesus, and Jesus saved him.
“Did you see him?”
“No, I felt him. It’s far more powerful.”
Right. Either that, or it was gas. Now, I had kind of started to like this guy, so I didn’t want to bring down the hammer of logic too hard.
“Listen,” I said, “I don’t want you to take this the wrong way, and I don’t want to belittle your experience, but when I was a child, I was in bed one night and saw the Easter Bunny. I didn’t really see the Easter Bunny.”
“This wasn’t visual. I felt him. It was him.”
Where does one go from there in an argument? This man will always believe in god because he had indigestion once as a tot.
Then he started talking about other “evidence” of god, including the story of The Blue Nun. If you don’t know the story, follow the link. It’s a hoot.
Anyway, I walked out of there with homework.
1. Read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis - I asked if there was more to it than the trilemma, and he said there is. I’ll have to check it out when I have time.
2. Read Don’t Throw Away Tomorrow by Schuller - Has anyone else read this? I don’t know anything about it.
3. Research a painting of Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane that supposedly emits light. - I asked him if he’d ever heard of Thomas Kincaid. He got the joke, and didn’t seem to appreciate it.
So, that’s it. Shortly thereafter, the check showed up. I paid because the conversation was well worth the cost of a couple of salads. I hope you enjoyed this chance to be a fly on the wall.
~I AM~