Xmas All or Nothing
SEATTLE (Reuters) - A local rabbi is receiving hate mail and angry phone calls after Seattle airport officials took down its Christmas trees in response to his request to include a giant Menorah in the airport’s holiday decorations, his lawyer said on Monday.
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport removed its Christmas trees on Saturday after Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky threatened to sue the Port of Seattle, which operates the airport, if it did not include a menorah into its holiday decorations.
The rabbi works on behalf of Chabad-Lubavitch, a branch of Hasidic Judaism and an Orthodox Jewish movement.
The removal of the trees sparked a public outcry over what some say was political correctness run amok and part of a trend to adopt a secular tone toward Christmas.
Harvey Grad, the rabbi’s attorney, said it was never Bogomilsky’s intention to have the trees removed and the rabbi was “saddened” by the port’s decision to remove all holiday decorations instead of including the Menorah for Hanukkah.
“We are not part of the war on Christmas,” said Grad. “All we asked for was inclusion and now we’re getting hate mail and angry messages.”
The Chabad of Greater Seattle asked the airport to put the trees back and will not pursue any legal action even if the airport does not include the menorah into this year’s holiday decorations.
In a statement, the Port of Seattle said it removed the trees to avoid litigation with a religious group, which wanted to install the menorah and hold a lighting ceremony.
“The airport is not a traditional public forum and it would not be appropriate for such a ceremony, so we made the decision to remove the trees to allow the airport staff to focus on the busy travel season,” the Port said on its Web site.
I’m actually sort of torn on this. Despite the name, a tree is a fairly secular, or at least pagan, image. Whereas a Menorah, and the ceremony to light it, are indisputably religious. If the airport allows the Menorah, then they also have to allow other religious symbols. At what point then are they allowed to stop? If you extend that to it’s logical conclusion, you would need to represent every religion equally in order to be fair. Then the airport stops being an airport, and instead becomes a shrine to the religions of the world.
Whether they realize it or not, the Rabi’s petition for inclusion really puts Christians in a bind. Unless they are willing to admit that they have no interest in being fair or tolerant, then they have to advocate allowing the Menorah, and they don’t want that. The only other alternative justification for leaving the trees up is to admit that they are secular tradition, and they really don’t want that. Their choice then, is to either blatantly declare their intolerance of other belief systems, or to embrace a secular tradition free of crosses or mangers in public spaces. Clearly, the people sending the hate mail and phone calls have chosen the path of intolerance.
Personally, I enjoy a secular winter solstice celebration, and trees, wreaths, snow, etc., all fit in with my image of appropriate decorations for the season.
So, I respect the Rabi’s right to petition for equal coverage, but I find it sad that the airport didn’t have the balls to declare the trees secular decorations and leave them in place.
Besides, now that Christians have won the war on Christmas, can’t they afford to be a little more charitable?
December 12th, 2006 at at 11:33 am
The trees were put back.
But I agree with you. If it’s simply a “holiday tree” then it’s not overtly religious. Xmas is becoming more and more a secular holiday whether christians want to admit it or not. Even for many christians, the holiday is a secular gift-giving extravaganza. However, Hanukkah and a lighting ceremony would have been a very religious act.
December 12th, 2006 at at 12:05 pm
LBBP said, “Personally, I enjoy a secular winter solstice celebration, and trees, wreaths, snow, etc., all fit in with my image of appropriate decorations for the season.”
I agree completely. Of course in my home, most folks who visit for the first time are very confused because I have colored lights up year round inside. I just don’t like white lights. I do put up some colors out on the patio during the Winter Solstice season and what little celebrating we do is on the Solstice, falling on the 21st of this year.
Now, contrast this with my neighbor. This hairbrained divorcee has a HUGE plastic lit up Santa (almost 6 feet tall) glowing on her patio. And, as of yesterday, a big yard sign that says, “Let’s keep Christ in Christmas!”
I, as opposed to most evangelical christians, am tolerant. Mostly because I feel sorry for her for being so damn dumb. (Not just because of her patio dichotomy, but because talking to her is like talking to a daytime tv talkshow.) She’s such a good little christian. It’s very interesting to see how she has the tightly scheduled revolving door of men coming to fuck her down to a science. I mean, down to a two minute gap sometimes. Amazing. Yeah, you keep your christ in christmas mother mary…
December 13th, 2006 at at 12:26 am
As Delta said “Hanukkah and a lighting ceremony would have been a very religious act.”
The tradition of decorating trees, on the other hand, originated in European pre-Christian pagan cultures which gained an extensive history in numerous cultures, and seems only fitting that it should be used in celebration of the Winter Solstice and secular celebration of the winter season. The ancient pagan idea was that the evergreen tree represents a celebration of the renewal of life. Xians just came and stole it and try to claim it as their own.
So, actually, the “holiday tree” is for everyone no matter what one’s beliefs are.
As for the house and yard decorations, some people really set up a menagerie of confusion, don’t they? It cracks me up to see a house like one next door to me with the lighted 4-ft. cross on the roof and Santa and flying reindeer right next to it. Then on the ground is the lighted nativity scene with baby jeebus next to Frosty the Snowman and an oversized-inflatable Winnie the Pooh in a Santa hat. The whirring inflatable snowglobe and inflatable Winnie the Pooh require a motors that sound like someone is constantly running a couple of lawn mowers. Candy canes line the driveway and little lighted elves are here and there. It’s really, really quite bizarre. Then of course, the tree in the window and those blinking icicle lights around the gutters and encircling the windows.
December 13th, 2006 at at 1:06 pm
I wouldn’t put up any Christmas decorations on my lawn at all, except my wife bugs me about it. She doesn’t want our house to look conspicuous in its absence of decorations.
December 13th, 2006 at at 4:18 pm
Your anti-Christian bent fells you here: This “puts Christians in a bind. Unless they are willing to admit that they have no interest in being fair or tolerant, then they have to advocate allowing the Menorah, and they don’t want that.” Family Research Council, a usual suspect in the line-up of conservative Christian groups, expresses its acceptance of a Menorah added to the trees: “Elzar Bogomilsky had demanded that the airport add an eight-foot menorah to the display on the grounds that Hanukkah should be equally celebrated. No problem there, but the Airport responded by eliminating all celebrations.” accessed 13 Dec 06
December 14th, 2006 at at 9:38 am
Well… I do believe that Christmas is just a commercial holiday now. Even my christian friends(what poor little lambs) dont talk about Jesus and God around Christmas. I am always torn because I am VERY atheist in my ways, but I enjoy celebrating Christmas. I like what it has come to symbolize recently. Although it is christian in origin(that is, if we don’t go down the road of christians ripping off the pagans), nowadays it seems to be more about giving and being with family and friends. If the airport is a public building, I do agree that it should decorate for all winter holidays(not all religions… they aren’t putting up crosses, it’s holiday decor.), including Hannukah, or not decorate for anything at all. However, if someplace is privately owned(I don’t know what the deal is with the airport honestly), because of religious freedom, they should be able to do whatever the hell they want.
I think the whole “Happy Holidays” vs “Merry Christmas” thing was ridiculous. If stores want to sell things that say “Merry Christmas”, that’s their right. Just like if someone wants to display a big ugly crucifix on their house. We are (supposedly) guaranteed religious freedom. That means that people should be able to say whatever they want about Christmas, and if somebody takes offense, too bad.
That’s why I had a problem with the end Christmas campaign. I totally supported planting The God Who Wasn’t There, and exposing the truth about Christianity… but it seemed like people weren’t just out to talk truth. They wanted(and still do want) to take away the right to celebrate. And I think as atheists, we need to be careful, because we are excercising our right of freedom to religion everyday.
I guess this is just a rambling, but I’m just trying to say that christians have the right to believe and celebrate what they want, we just need to help them see truth and reason. Nobody likes having their rights violated, or having something be shoved down their throat. We’ll never help them like this. And we as atheists won’t make much progress.
December 14th, 2006 at at 5:24 pm
“Unless they (Christians) are willing to admit that they have no interest in being fair or tolerant, then they have to advocate allowing the Menorah, and they don’t want that.”
JBBP,
Please support that statement. I have never met a Christian or heard one or read one who wanted to disallow the display of a Menorah.
December 15th, 2006 at at 9:57 am
Interesting post, Doug Purdie…
“JBBP,
Please support that statement. I have never met a Christian or heard one or read one who wanted to disallow the display of a Menorah.”
If your meaning here is to say, because you personally have not met anyone like that, therefore they don’t exist, I do hope you give some of us atheists the same leeway, when we might bring up the fact that we have not seen or met God, therefore we believe that God doesn’t exist. Have you seen or met God personally? I mean that in the same empirical sense that you mean from your “I have never met a Christian…” You don’t have to answer that, just think about it.
December 15th, 2006 at at 10:02 am
By the way, don’t assume that I have actually used the argument “I haven’t seen or met God, therefore God doesn’t exist”. My reasons for my atheism run far, far deeper in thought than that.
December 15th, 2006 at at 3:32 pm
Doug Purdie wrote: Please support that statement. I have never met a Christian or heard one or read one who wanted to disallow the display of a Menorah.
Doug Purdie…here’s one. If you surf the net you will find lots more.
Here’s an interesting twist on the usual battles over holiday displays on government property: a Christian complaining about displays that celebrate Judaism but not Christianity.
December 15th, 2006 at at 5:08 pm
It’s so sad what’s happened to Christmas. Well, I wouldn’t like it either way, but it certainly is a testament to the marketing machine to see what Christmas has become. It’s a commercial holiday now. I mean, even Santa Clause was created by a company as a mascot for a product, way back when.
And to Doug I say: what?
December 16th, 2006 at at 10:34 am
I’ve lived on both sides of the fence, Christian and Jewish. The truth is that many Jews are secular and, just like self-identified secular “Christians” light up the Tree, they still light up the Menorah. As long as our society still refers to that decoration as a “Christmas” Tree, there is nothing secular about it! “Christ” and “Mass”. Most secularist from a Christian social background just don’t get it when Jews express their dismay at this yearly onslaught of Christmas Trees and Christmas well-wishing. It seems like backdoor evangelism under the guise of good old capitalism.
December 18th, 2006 at at 8:09 pm
I always thought the fence was theism-atheism. Perhaps it’s tri-vectored fence…
December 20th, 2006 at at 11:51 am
What about a big Goat of Mendes symbol? Cant we include Satanic holiday symbols as well?
December 21st, 2006 at at 1:02 pm
I can’t help noticing that requests for public display of religious symbols do not come up at other times of the year. Hanukkah is not even a major Jewish holiday. I read this action as a push-back to having Christmas elevated to a state holiday rather than as a desire to inspire Jewish fliers.
December 21st, 2006 at at 1:28 pm
“Happy Holidays” - Deal With It…
The phrase “happy holidays” enrages countless Christians and represents the heart of the war on Christmas. When an individual says “happy holidays” to a Christian instead of “merry Christmas,” the Christian is supposed to assume that this is code…
December 21st, 2006 at at 1:35 pm
I, as opposed to most evangelical christians, am tolerant.
Whether evangelical christians (and i mean real one’s, not those who say that they accept Christ and live in a way that mocks what Christ taught) are tolerant or not depends on how you define the word, tolerant. If, by tolerant, you mean the true definition of the word, which is a permissive attitude towards those who’s beliefs are different than your own, then there are a great number of tolerant evangelical christians. If, by tolerant, you mean that one must accept that people with other beliefs are just as right as yours are, then none of us can be.
As an evangelical Christian, in order for me to hold true to my faith, it is impossible for me to believe other religions to be entirely true. I do not, however, have a problem with Christmas trees (which have no part of the christian celebration of Christmas) or lack there of. I don’t mind if a Manorah gets put up somewhere any more than I mind that people use fertility symbols during easter. They have nothing to do with Christianity. By definition, I can be tolerant, and still not consider another person’s beliefs to be correct.
The problem that people have, and understandably so, is this:
Because I believe that your views are wrong, and lead to hell, I am obligated, out of love and compassion (not a desire to make you feel bad) to tell you that your way leads to destruction. I realize, and apoligize for my fellow Christians, like your neighbor, who give Christ a bad name, and repel intelligent people like yourselves from the Gospel.
December 22nd, 2006 at at 9:16 am
Thank you for your kind words Josh. I think your belief in the truth of Christianity is wrong, but I have no desire to force you to not be able to practice your faith, and I know that neither of us is going to hell after we die.
While the Jerry Falwells of the world to give evangelical Christians a bad image, it is not people like Falwell that turned me away from Christianity. Rather it was that I could no longer force myself to believe in something that did not seem rational to me.
To believe in Christianity, I have to basically believe the following: There is an all powerful Supreme Being, who somehow is a male (does God have a penis?). This Supreme Being created an infinite universe filled with millions of galaxies, each containing tens of billions of planets, billions of stars, and other celestial bodies, and yet this God operates on Earth time (as in creating everything in seven days). On one planet (Earth) orbiting one star in one solar system of one galaxy he creates life, including people. This God then decides he is going to watch over and meddle constantly in the affairs of mankind, and kill lots of us when he gets mad, such as a worldwide flood and burning cities full of allegedly wicked people. This God then decides he is going to be the personal friend of a guy named Abraham and act as a tribal deity to Abraham and his descendants (what about the rest of humanity, you know, the great civilizations of Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, China etc.?) and give to them a stretch of land in the Middle East that does not contain suitable conditions for large scale agriculture or have any mineral wealth of note and which is geographically indefensible from the larger and more powerful enemies of the Hebrews.
After being the personal tribal god of the Hebrews for some 2,000 years or so, this God then decides he is going to get a virgin pregnant and that the super boy who is born from this miracle will wander about for a few years, preaching and healing lepers and expelling demons (apparently the Galilee 2,000 years ago had the largest concentration of lepers and demon possessed people in the world). Super boy proceeds to get captured, crucified, and allegedly rises from the dead. This sacrifice is supposed to be the most important moment in history, and yet for some 1,500 years afterwards, the majority of the population on the planet is still ignorant of this momentous event. And I am supposed to believe that the Supreme Being will consign me to an eternity of torment in the afterlife if I don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God and worship him. You see Josh, I have a hard time, no, make that an impossible time, believing that our life on this Earth is simply a testing ground so that some Supreme Being who obviously has too much free time on his hands can decide whether or not my soul will spend an eternity in either blissful happiness or eternal suffering based not on my actions or conduct, but on whether I believe he exists.
The way I look at it Josh, even if there is a God that created our universe and takes some kind of interest in us, I have to believe that an entity so advanced and powerful would have to be above such petty human characteristics as anger, jealousy and narcissism. Such a supreme being would not need us to worship it any more than I expect amoeba or dolphins to worship me. To me, a rational supreme being would care more about how we conducted ourselves in our lives than whether or not we had faith that things that seem far fetched to us really happened. To me, being a good husband, a good father, being charitable, caring about human rights and social justice, being a good steward of this Earth and so forth are infinitely more important than believing that a man known to history as Jesus Christ really was the son of God and that he rose from the dead.
If you wonder why intelligent people are repelled by Christianity or any other religion, what I wrote above is why. What answer can you are any other Christian give me in response to that?
December 22nd, 2006 at at 12:53 pm
Because I believe that your views are wrong, and lead to hell, I am obligated, out of love and compassion (not a desire to make you feel bad) to tell you that your way leads to destruction. I realize, and apoligize for my fellow Christians, like your neighbor, who give Christ a bad name, and repel intelligent people like yourselves from the Gospel.
Josh - In this one brief statement you managed to apologize and yet repeat what you are apologizing on behalf of your fellow xians for in one breath! It’s the typical pre-programmed response we hear on a regular basis.
What you fail to understand, is that even if there were a heaven and a hell, is one place really better than another? I would call being in a heaven as a servant/slave to this god and kissing his feet and singing praises to him 24-7 and surrounded by self-righteous, pompous, judgemental bigots, and the Jerry Falwells, the Benny Hinns, the Ken Hovinds, the serial killers who repent at the last minute a whole other hell of its own kind.
It is absurd to think that a good god would create little humans and then set them up for ultimate failure and eternal torture for merely not believing in him. Why not just puff us into oblivion in an instant? What sadistic satisfaction could come from seeing human beings suffer for all eternity for merely not being convinced of this god’s existence? It’s not human beings’ faults that the message is not clear and there is absolutely zero evidence except an ancient text written by these same flawed creatures. If the message is life or death, why send idiot illiterate people to convey the message? None of them can get the message straight themselves. It’s only absurd mythology, just like all of the other mythologies that xianity came out of.
There is no heaven, no hell…and when I die and I am cremated, and my ashes scattered…all that will be left of me is my memory that lives on in the minds and hearts of people who knew me and loved me.
December 22nd, 2006 at at 1:36 pm
Thank you for your kind words Josh. I think your belief in the truth of Christianity is wrong, but I have no desire to force you to not be able to practice your faith, and I know that neither of us is going to hell after we die.
While the Jerry Falwells of the world to give evangelical Christians a bad image, it is not people like Falwell that turned me away from Christianity. Rather it was that I could no longer force myself to believe in something that did not seem rational to me.
To believe in Christianity, I have to basically believe the following: There is an all powerful Supreme Being, who somehow is a male (does God have a male organ between his legs?). This Supreme Being created an infinite universe filled with millions of galaxies, each containing tens of billions of planets, billions of stars, and other celestial bodies, and yet this God operates on Earth time (as in creating everything in seven days). On one planet (Earth) orbiting one star in one solar system of one galaxy he creates life, including people. This God then decides he is going to watch over and meddle constantly in the affairs of mankind, and kill lots of us when he gets mad, such as a worldwide flood and burning cities full of allegedly wicked people. This God then decides he is going to be the personal friend of a guy named Abraham and act as a tribal deity to Abraham and his descendants (what about the rest of humanity, you know, the great civilizations of Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, China etc.?) and give to them a stretch of land in the Middle East that does not contain suitable conditions for large scale agriculture or have any mineral wealth of note and which is geographically indefensible from the larger and more powerful enemies of the Hebrews.
After being the personal tribal god of the Hebrews for some 2,000 years or so, this God then decides he is going to get a virgin pregnant and that the super boy who is born from this miracle will wander about for a few years, preaching and healing lepers and expelling demons (apparently the Galilee 2,000 years ago had the largest concentration of lepers and demon possessed people in the world). Super boy proceeds to get captured, crucified, and allegedly rises from the dead. This sacrifice is supposed to be the most important moment in history, and yet for some 1,500 years afterwards, the majority of the population on the planet is still ignorant of this momentous event. And I am supposed to believe that the Supreme Being will consign me to an eternity of torment in the afterlife if I don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God and worship him. You see Josh, I have a hard time, no, make that an impossible time, believing that our life on this Earth is simply a testing ground so that some Supreme Being who obviously has too much free time on his hands can decide whether or not my soul will spend an eternity in either blissful happiness or eternal suffering based not on my actions or conduct, but on whether I believe he exists.
The way I look at it Josh, even if there is a God that created our universe and takes some kind of interest in us, I have to believe that an entity so advanced and powerful would have to be above such petty human characteristics as anger, jealousy and narcissism. Such a supreme being would not need us to worship it any more than I expect amoeba or dolphins to worship me. To me, a rational supreme being would care more about how we conducted ourselves in our lives than whether or not we had faith that things that seem far fetched to us really happened. To me, being a good husband, a good father, being charitable, caring about human rights and social justice, being a good steward of this Earth and so forth are infinitely more important than believing that a man known to history as Jesus Christ really was the son of God and that he rose from the dead.
If you wonder why intelligent people are repelled by Christianity or any other religion, what I wrote above is why. What answer can you are any other Christian give me in response to that?
NOTE TO SITE ADMINISTRATOR! My earlier post on this is held in moderation, probably because I used the P-word in describing God’s male characteristics. I repeated the post above but removed the word causing my earlier post to be tied up in moderation. Therefore, please delete the post still in moderation. Thanks, TK
December 22nd, 2006 at at 3:08 pm
Rather it was that I could no longer force myself to believe in something that did not seem rational to me.
Tommykey - your comment is excellent.
December 22nd, 2006 at at 4:26 pm
Thanks Stardust. Yours as well. I see we actually had some common points. Well, you know what they say about great minds!
I plan to be cremated too. I think I just hate the idea of my dead body taking up space in the ground. It doesn’t seem practical. I think some people don’t want to be cremated because they’re afraid that when the flames are turned on, maybe the coroner made a mistake and they might still be alive and all of a sudden “YEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOW that’s friggin hot!”
December 22nd, 2006 at at 4:36 pm
I think some people don’t want to be cremated because they’re afraid that when the flames are turned on, maybe the coroner made a mistake and they might still be alive and all of a sudden “YEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOW that’s friggin hot!”
Tommy - the fundamentalists in my family think that cremation is wrong because the soul must have a body to meet up with when Jeebus comes again. Cremation for me then is just extra insurance that I won’t be stuck in a heavenly hell with all those forgiven pedophile priests and a sadistic sky daddy.
(That is supposed to be humorous sarcasm.) 
December 25th, 2006 at at 10:37 pm
“Unless they (Christians) are willing to admit that they have no interest in being fair or tolerant, then they have to advocate allowing the Menorah, and they don’t want that.”
JBBP,
Please support that statement. I have never met a Christian or heard one or read one who wanted to disallow the display of a Menorah.
You obviously must not of read the paragraph very well.
“SEATTLE (Reuters) - A local rabbi is receiving hate mail and angry phone calls after Seattle airport officials took down its Christmas trees in response to his request to include a giant Menorah in the airport’s holiday decorations, his lawyer said on Monday.”
Who else would the hate mail and angry phone calls come from?
December 25th, 2006 at at 10:57 pm
Doc, the hate mail obviously came from atheists trying to make Christians look intolerant!
December 27th, 2006 at at 8:53 pm
Who else would the hate mail and angry phone calls come from?
Just possibly: from Christians, or non-Christians who happen to like the trees, who were pissed that (as they perhaps saw it) the Rabbi had caused the trees to be removed.
January 3rd, 2007 at at 3:09 am
Just a general comment…as EVERY ONE of your posts on this sad website is the same. So you don’t believe there is a Higher power or God, so what? How about YOU get over it? Stop playing victim already.
Oh, and I shutter at the thought of your wife warping the minds of little preschoolers. I just skimmed your rant on the Pledge of Allegiance and nearly vomited myself. Just because you’re of the “America is the great culprit of the world” group, and a card carrying communist lunatic, doesn’t mean you get special treatment.
America is a Believers nation. Get used to it. You’re wasting your time. Seriously. Let’s review the percentage of Americans that believe in God against the single digit percentage of those that don’t due to some “my dad and mom were not good parents” story. MILLIONS of AMERICANS BELIEVE IN GOD. BILLIONS of the GLOBAL POPULATION DO TOO.
Ever think that you’re wrong? That the rest of the freakin’ world has it right? That we didn’t evolve from that big hairy monkey in the zoo that eats it own shit? Wake up man.
To sum everything up. EVERYONE who reads this hopefully will simply remember these MAIN THEMES AND GO WORK THEM OUT INSTEAD OF VISITING THIS STUPID SITE:
#1. YOU HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM WITH AMERICA.
#2. THIS IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM WITH BELIEVING IN GOD.
#3. THIS IS BECAUSE YOU WERE EITHER RAISED DIRECTLY BY OR SO INFLUENCED INDIRECTLY BY BAD EXAMPLES OF SO CALLED ‘BELIEVERS’ OR BY OTHER NONBELIEVERS THAT YOU GOT ON BOARD.
#4. THIS IS ALSO HIGHLY LIKELY THAT YOU EITHER WENT TO ACADEMIA (AND MAJORED IN SOMETHING GODLESS LIKE SOCIOLOGY OR PHILOSOPHY) OR HAD YOUR BRAIN WASHED SOMEWHERE ELSE (MAYBE AT PRESCHOOL BY NEO-MARXIST “TEACHERS” LIKE YOUR WIFE)…WHO WAS TAUGHT EVERYTHING BY SOME OTHER REGURGITATING MARX, ALTHUSSER, FISH, LACAN, AND THE REST OF THE GODLESS ANTISEMITIC WACKOS, WHO’VE BEEN PEDALING IT ALL SINCE THEY THEMSELVES, CAME UPON #3.
January 3rd, 2007 at at 9:19 am
Gosh, UniverseCreated, what went wrong with my life?…
I don’t think “America is the greatest culprit of the world”.
I’m not a “card carrying communist” (Though didn’t the first group of christian believers live a life that could have very well been modeled after some form of ‘communism”?)
My Mom and Dad were very good parents,… my Mom even stayed at home!!
I often wonder whether I’m right or wrong.
I, too, believe that I “didn’t evolve from that big hairy monkey in the zoo”. We evolved from the same ancestor. (and here I also wonder who got the better deal, the monkey or us, as I don’t see monkeys killing each other for no good reason.)
I don’t have a major problem with America (only with those who want to change it into a theocracy, like in Iraq, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia. They do believe in God, don’t they?)
I don’t have a major problem with believing in God, I just DON’T believe in God (There was only a problem when I DID believe in God)
I’m what I am, by thinking, not strictly by what others tell me what to think.
I’m an athiest,
So what went wrong?
January 3rd, 2007 at at 2:10 pm
Oh UniverseCreated. God, Guns and Glory eh?
Ladies and gentlemen, this poor soul is probably the kind who ends up in prison for standing in front of an abortion clinic with a concealed handgun and firing when the first person comes out the door who looks like a baby killin’ doctor.
Go peddle your happy holy horseshit on those who aren’t laughing their asses off at you.
America will never be the theocracy that you and your ilk desire. And, the polls are clearly wrong. Some people won’t say they don’t believe in a god because they’re truly afraid of the superstitious mental neanderthals such as yourself.
January 4th, 2007 at at 7:23 am
Chanukah is not a high (religious) holiday. Indeed, a menorah can easily be seen as the parallel of a Christmas tree. As explained in the above quote, the “festival of lights” aspect of Chanukah is probably a vestige of the pagan solstice festival of lights tradition. It is merely the version passed down through the Jewish community rather than the Christian community. It is perfectly appropriate to include a menorah alongside a Christmas tree in a secular festival of lights display, particularly if the Jewish community requests it.
January 4th, 2007 at at 4:41 pm
I’ll just point out that…
…a single-digit percentage of the American population still makes for at least 3 million nonbelievers.
January 5th, 2007 at at 8:16 am
Its quite sad actually that Christ’s birthday has become a festivity without reverence. I can’t wait until he returns so that we will all be accountable for our discraceful disrespect. We expect Christians to be so tolerance yet we persecute them. We atheists need to have a good hard look at ourselves.
January 5th, 2007 at at 8:21 am
Yeah, maybe you are right. What if we are actually wrong? Who will we turn to? What will we do?
January 5th, 2007 at at 8:26 am
Will there be mercy? Will there be any grace left? Have we gone to far…searching for an infinite nothing? Maybe we have suppressed the evidence. Maybe the gospels are true…
January 5th, 2007 at at 1:31 pm
UniverseCreated, the shift key can be your friend, but, like alcohol, it must be used in moderation, or everyone suffers. I’m going to guess you’ve heard this before, but I’ve never said it, so it’s not old for me yet.
None of those are the reasons I visit this site. I happen to like the writing here. I think it’s intelligent and a little on the snarky side, and I happen to like that kind of writing.
Some (hopefully) elucidating points to keep in mind:
1) Truth is not a popularity contest. Remember, the Earth is a sphere which orbits the sun, and rotates on its axis. This causes the seasons and the motion of the objects in the sky. Just because many people have been convinced that the earth is flat, and that everything revolves around it, doesn’t make it true. Pointing to how many people believe in something doesn’t count as a valid argument for this reason, and merely means you’ve got no better arguments.
2) I’m fair certain that most primates don’t eat their own excrement. Many have been shown to throw it, but that’s a slightly different activity.
3) I doubt any of us has a “MAJOR PROBLEM WITH AMERICA.” Most of us might have a beef with the way it’s run, or where public opinion seems to go, but I imagine most of the Americans here would hold the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence to a pretty high level of respect. The American Ideal of fairness and equality is one we all hold dear, I imagine.
4) True, most of us have a problem believing in God or gods or whatever, but that doesn’t lead to having anything against America. That’s just nonsense. Remember how many pancakes it takes to cover the doghouse: Purple, because ice cream doesn’t have the bones.
5) Actually, both of my parents are loving, supportive people, who are both rational, sensible, and devout in their beliefs. I’m one of the lucky ones who had a fairly painless deconversion. If it’s any kind of indication, my sister is becoming what we might call a “Bible-Thumper”
6) I majored in Computer Science, which is “godless” in much the same way a ball-point pen is. I’ve never taken a sociology or philosophy course, coming closest with Psychology 101, which is also pretty non-threatening for belief. As an aside, how does one go to academia? Also, I’ve never read any of the people you mention, or any other “GODLESS, ANTISEMITIC WACKOS.” Or does Stephen Hawking count? Maybe Terry Pratchett or H.P. Lovecraft was what did it for me? I know, it was that hate-mongering, godless, misanthropic nutcase Malaclypse the Younger. Bastard ruined any chance I might have had to be a Real True Christian. Boogers, I guess it’s the pits for me.
Finally, silent trolls are the most fun to feed.
January 5th, 2007 at at 6:04 pm
Let’s review the percentage of Americans that believe in God against the single digit percentage of those that don’t… MILLIONS of AMERICANS BELIEVE IN GOD.
I really find this argument that “millions of people believe so that makes it true” to be quite a lame and unthinking one.
As Brendan pointed out in his above comment, at one time, most people once thought the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth. Only a few, at risk of being banished, imprisoned, persecuted or executed, stated boldly their claims (based on evidence they collected) that the earth is round and that it revolves around the sun, and after further investigation and research, it was proven that they were correct.
At one time, the majority of religious people believed in witchcraft and burned many innocent men, women and children at the stake. Just because many people believe a certain thing doesn’t make it true. It just means that there are quite a lot of superstitious people on this planet who are afraid of their own immortality. Over the centuries humans have just exchanged one superstition for another and create gods for themselves in order to cope with the difficulties of life, and the reality that we are alone (so far as we know) in this vast cold universe and that we will one day no longer exist.
January 5th, 2007 at at 6:12 pm
Also, people like UniverseCreated most likely have not read their own holy text, and do not know anything about U.S. Government, the Constitution, World Religions, World History, nor the subjects that he is condemning. (Philosophy and Sociology which are taught even at colleges and universities with religious affiliation.) UniverseCreated’s ignorance shines.
January 6th, 2007 at at 9:24 am
Michael Jackson still inexplicably seems to have lots of fans. He is still a weirdo and possible pedophile.
January 9th, 2007 at at 5:50 pm
Tommykey, wtf?
No disrespect or anything, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything. Unless it’s a reference to people’s ability to hold onto a position despite evidence to the contrary. Even then, a lot of Michael Jackson’s older stuff is actually pretty good, and it’s perfectly plausible that one would be a fan of his music without caring for him as a person at all. I happen to think Thriller was pretty awesome, but I can’t look at a recent picture of him and not recoil in horror.
January 9th, 2007 at at 9:54 pm
Brendan, I was just being silly. It was my way of responding to Universal’s argument that Christianity must be true if so many people believe it over the centuries. Lighten up man.
January 10th, 2007 at at 5:25 pm
I’m sorry I came off as angry there. I think (read: hope) I meant a more baffled response, and not an angry one. Sorry about that.
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