Gay Ban Debates, Medved vs. John
I’ve always liked Elton John. Not just his music, which I do enjoy, but I appreciate his work as a philanthropist and liberal activist. He’s particularly active here in Las Vegas with the Andre Agassi Foundation, and I have a couple of friends that work on his show at Caesar’s Palace. Somehow, I hadn’t realized that he’s also an atheist, even better.
He made some comments in an interview recently that I imagine most of the readers of this site can appreciate; “From my point of view I would ban religion completely, [...] organized religion doesn’t seem to work. It turns people into hateful lemmings and it’s not really compassionate.” I couldn’t agree more.
I’ve never really liked Michael Medved, and now he’s given me yet another reason. Here’s an excerpt from his reaction to Sir Elton’s comments.
Despite that “hatred and spite,” religious leaders actually express more tolerance to homosexuality (and non-believers) than Sir Elton expresses toward organized faith. Imagine the indignation if a religious leader suggested that we need to “ban homosexuality completely” — or urged an outright prohibition on atheism? It’s true that many believing Christians want to persuade gays to overcome their same-sex urges, or try to get non-believers to replace their doubt with faith, but no factions in the varied array of conservative religious groups has called for “banning” ideas with which they disagree.
Is he serious? He’s either supremely naive, utterly stupid, or intentionally deceitful. Just in case he reads this site (it could happen), and assuming that he’s just ignorant of the actual “hatred and spite” of many religious leaders, I thought I’d help him out by posting just a few headlines about gay bans from the past couple of years. Three things about this list are worth noting; I didn’t include any references to gay marriage (too easy), it’s in no way comprehensive there’s much more out there, and this short list makes it apparent that the only thing preventing actual bans on gays are the courts.
Drives to ban gay adoption heat up in 16 states
Alabama Bill Targets Gay Authors
Texas May Ban Gay Foster Parents
Vatican to Israel: Ban gay parade
Utah lawmaker seeks to ban gay-straight clubs
Behind the Vatican’s Proposed Gay Seminarian Ban
CBS, NBC ban church ad inviting gays
County Rescinds Vote to Ban Gay Residents
Tennessee County Wants to Ban Gays
Drives to Ban Gay Adoption Heat Up in 16 States
Hong Kong court upholds rejection of gay sex ban
Gay pride challenges Moscow
BYU Student Poll: Ban Gay Students
State Baptists to meet, may ban churches that back gays
Homosexual Group Slams Bishops for New Stance on Gays
and of course we can’t forget…
The last headline above actually speaks better of the “tolerance” Medved claims is common amongst religious leaders. However, I think the Catholic Church, in releasing a more tolerant position on gays, is really just covering their ass because they’ve finally realized just how many of their clergy are already in fact “celibate” homosexuals.
Medved also drops this little gem towards the end of his rant.
“In the bitter debate about teaching our children about the origins of life on earth, religious activists make no attempt to block the teaching of Darwinism or random natural selection, but it’s pro-evolution fanatics who fanatically resist any messages or questions that even hint at Intelligent Design.“
Maybe it is intentional?
LBBP
November 16th, 2006 at at 2:25 pm
LBBP,
Great post. Medved’s been my favorite conservative parrot and a bug up my rational ass for years. When you need someone to heap righteous indignation upon a deluded, secular, Darwinist culture, Medved can heap like no other. And what’s this “religious activists make no attempt to block the teaching of Darwinism” crap? This guy writes for several newspapers and apparently doesn’t even read them. And I suppose anyone with a fairly solid grasp of biology and the scientific method is “a pro-evolution fanatic.”
November 16th, 2006 at at 2:39 pm
I’d go with “intentionally deceitfully.” No question.
Great collection of links. I clicked through to the “Alabama Bill Targets Gay Authors” one, since I couldn’t recall hearing about the story, and apparently the ban wasn’t just on “gay” books in public schools - which you’d expect - but IN THE PUBLIC AND COLLEGE LIBRARIES AS WELL (!). The newest version of the bill just applies to school libraries, but still. Thank the FSM for free speech-lovin’ librarians!
November 16th, 2006 at at 6:34 pm
The man is deluded.
Imagine the indignation if a religious leader suggested that we need to “ban homosexuality completely”
Haven’t we seen the indignation? Hasn’t this happened? I just can’t stand when people make blanket statements like this. Perhaps the majority of the religious leaders have kept their mouths shut, but what about some of the more prominent ones? Pat Robertson comes to mind.
November 16th, 2006 at at 7:25 pm
Medved is clearly living, along with many of his ilk, in a parallel universe. The problem is that they keep intruding into ours.
November 16th, 2006 at at 7:43 pm
Let us not forget that gay men in Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and other places have actually been sentenced to death for the “crime” of their homosexuality. Not just gay-bashed or attacked by angry mobs, but sentenced by a “civil” authority. They don’t just want to ban homosexuality, they want to exterminate it.
November 17th, 2006 at at 12:59 am
You think it’s ok to ban religion? You want to take away a man’s right to choose his own belief system? That’s ridiculous.
It’s true there are kooks who try to ban gayness, but that doesn’t mean we should outlaw kookiness.
I wonder why ~I Am~ still lets you post here, LBBP. Not only are you terrible at knowing when to use apostrophes, you support laws to control people’s thoughts. Disgusting.
November 17th, 2006 at at 8:49 am
> You think it’s ok to ban religion?
(I am not Elton John. Any attempt to clarify his remarks is a half-assed guess on my part.)
I don’t think that Elton John meant that he would support a law with penalties for holding religious beliefs or participating in religious practices. I think this was a “If I had a magic wand…” kind of statement.
Does that mean that it would be alright for Elton John to use a magic wand to “take away a man’s right to choose his own belief system”? The kneejerk answer is no, but what if we were talking about racism. Would it be morally acceptable to use a magic wand to erase racism from the world? You would still be using it to “take away a man’s right to choose his own belief system”.
Just wondering…how many fundamentalist Christian preachers do you think would, if handed a (non-evil-tainted) magic wand, say to themselves “Hey, this is just a really fast, effective tool for evangelizing and bringing people to Jesus.”? I don’t expect many would concern themselves with “a man’s right to choose his own belief system”.
November 17th, 2006 at at 9:55 am
> You think it’s ok to ban religion?
(I am not Elton John. Any attempt to clarify his remarks is a half-assed guess on my part.)
I don’t think that Elton John meant that he would support a law with penalties for holding religious beliefs or participating in religious practices. I think this was a “If I had a magic wand…” kind of statement.
I think you’re right. For myself, a ban on religion would mean that the rest of humanity finally came to their senses and abandoned it voluntarily. That wouldn’t even necessarily mean that humanity had given up on spirituality, just realized that the ultimate answers to life, the universe, and everything are not to be found in the Bible, the Qur’an, or any other religious text.
November 17th, 2006 at at 4:32 pm
Wow, this Medved guy really has balls to be saying things like that.
Religion doesn’t allow for tolerance and unconditional love. It just doesn’t. And with the world the way it is today, the last thing we need is this archaic mess to screw things up.
And, about Elton John, I read about the interview the other day, and I agree. Everyone thinks I’m a bad person when I say that religion is negative, or that that we should get rid of it. But in actuality, it’s only because I care about my fellow man that I have these ideas. I feel that religion endangers me and the people I care about, and also that it’s silly.
November 17th, 2006 at at 8:26 pm
Next thing you know He’ll be saying something like. That wasn’t us (xians) who voted for those amendments to ban gay marriage. Honest it wasn’t.
November 18th, 2006 at at 3:39 am
No matter what, there will always be opposition to any religion. If religion is a set of rules or beliefs that someone lives by(Webster’s Revised Unabridged 1913) and there was a ban on religion, where would that leave you because your religion is ‘unbelief’ or ‘atheism’? There will always be a belief in something, whether that belief is in ‘existence’ or ‘non-existence’.
November 18th, 2006 at at 11:15 am
“From my point of view I would ban religion completely, […] organized religion doesn’t seem to work. It turns people into hateful lemmings and it’s not really compassionate.”
Elton and everyone else, this is a hasty generalization. It is like saying Atheism brings chaos. In some cases it might, and ultimately and logically and might, but many atheists are not anarchists. Medved’s point is actually valid, since the vast majority of Christians do not feel like those who created the websites you have listed. Grouping everone together, whatever points of view they might share in common, is not a wise thing to do and usually muddies that water and hides truth. I would simply say be more careful in throwing out guilt-by-association rhetoric.
November 18th, 2006 at at 4:43 pm
Dollar,
With the one exception, the list of links from my post are not isolated websites. Those links are just a small sampling of headlines about communities all over the world that are attempting to impose very real bans on homosexuals. Everything from limiting their right to be parents up to and including their right to exist in those communities. Most of it initiated “in the name of the Lord”. Couple that with the sweeping acceptance of gay marriage bans, and we are not talking about an insignificant minority, we are talking about a large percentage that are being led by self righteous homophobic “religious” leaders hell bent on eradicating what they consider to be crimes against God and nature. That doesn’t strike me as very “tolerant”. Medved’s point is crap.
As for a “ban on religion”, I would whole heartedly support one, as long as everyone else agrees. I consider it a worthwhile goal to try and convince them. I won’t see it in my lifetime, but I expect that humanity might be able to come out of the dark ages by the time my great grand children’s great grand children come of age. That is, assuming some fundamentalist religious whack job doesn’t start a nuclear war.
November 18th, 2006 at at 5:50 pm
There will always be a belief in something, whether that belief is in ‘existence’ or ‘non-existence’.
Which is like saying that people will always think something. So? Elton John’s statement was clearly targeted at organized religions i.e. Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc.. and was more about the Us vs. Them brain washing that comes with membership in such groups. Yes, one could argue that atheists also adopt an Us vs. Them position, but atheists derive their lack of belief in a much different way than theists derive their belief.
Atheists don’t have places of worship, weekly brainwashing sessions, secret handshakes, racial identities, or magic talismans. Atheism is a far more individualistic world view, and despite misplaced references to Stalin or Hitler or Mao, I doubt you will ever see an atheist suicide bomber or an atheistic crusade. Are rancor as atheists does not stem from a desire to “save” Muslims or convert Christians, but rather from a petition to society at large to leave your personal beliefs at the door, and to desist from imposing them on the rest of us. Religions, on the other hand, seek to impose their belief’s so as to “save the lost from damnation” or whatever. This imposition of beliefs is the behavior I would ban, not the beliefs themselves. I don’t really care if you believe that some loon got nailed to a tree and lived to tell about it, but how dare you try to make me (or anyone else) live my life your way because of it.
November 18th, 2006 at at 9:45 pm
“This imposition of beliefs is the behavior I would ban, not the beliefs themselves. I don’t
really care if you believe that some loon got nailed to a tree and lived to tell about it,
but how dare you try to make me (or anyone else) live my life your way because of it.”
You misunderstand the nature of what a belief is. If I believe something, that means (by definition) that I think it is true. I cannot believe my truck is green, but not truly think it is actually green. I would never say, “I believe my red truck is green.” As such, when I believe that Jesus Christ offers salvation, that means I think it is true, not some privitized notion that gets me through the day.
If I believe that a militant group of killers was working their way toward my city, I would do all in my power to warn my fellow inhabitants of the danger. This is what I as a Christian attempt to do. I am only attempting to “impose” certain beliefs because these beliefs are what I think are true and with very good reason and justification.
This, by the way, is what LLBP is attempting to do as well - by his / her own admission
“As for a ‘ban on religion’, I would whole heartedly support one, as long as everyone else agrees. I consider it a worthwhile goal to try and convince them.”
LLBP believes that atheism is true, and thus is seeking to impose that system of thought upon others. It is only natural to do this and I think we should get passed the whole I-am-angry-because-you-try-to-convert-attitude when in fact we are all trying to convert if indeed we believe our beliefs to be true and if we did not believe them to be true we would be foolish to believe them.
November 18th, 2006 at at 9:56 pm
Yeah, but Dollar, what would lead you to believe that a band of terrorists was making its way toward your city to do harm? Did you see them with your own eyes? Did somebody, a family member or trusted friend, call you to warn you?
On the other hand, I doubt you ever actually saw Jesus Christ in person, nor has anyone else you have known seen him. All it would take to turn me into a believing Christian would be for Jesus to appear in the room I am sitting in right now here as I type and for him to tell me….
Wait a second, there’s somebody in the room here with me. Holy shit! It’s Jesus!
Okay, I’m just kidding. Sorry, I couldn’t resist that.
But to get back to the point. You have never seen Jesus in person nor has anyone else alive today. You simply take it on faith that the Gospels in the Bible are a true and accurate account of a person who actually lived, performed miracles, was the son of the Creator of the Universe, died, and rose from the dead.
November 18th, 2006 at at 10:50 pm
Dollar,
I fully understand the nature of belief. It is you who misunderstands the nature of imposition. Writing about a belief, or speaking about a belief, is protected free speech and not an imposition. Legislating against a group of people based on belief in a fairytale is imposition.
November 19th, 2006 at at 8:21 pm
Do xians believe they will get extra brownie points for how many times they proseltyze or for how many converts they win? Do they believe they will get extra rewards in they afterlife like a spectacular trip for two around the Milky Way? Do xians believe they will get preferred treatment from their imaginary sky daddy and become his “special pet” for having bothered the most people in on atheists sites in the blogosphere? Do xians believe they will get their own fluffy cloud and golden harp for being the most pious? I mean…what is it that xians believe is in it for them that makes them feel compelled to bug the hell out of non-xians and to try to get them to “assimilate” to the “borg”? What the fuck is the point? Most xians could give two shits about other people most of the time, but feel compelled to “witness” about their religion to other people that they honestly cannot stand otherwise. They feel compelled to TELL others how to live according to their superstitious beliefs that are based on their crusty ancient texts, and indoctrinated bigotry and prejudices against others who are different from themselves even though these ones who are different are law abiding members of society. Why can’t xians just believe what they want, and live their lives the way they want, and leave us and our secular government the fuck alone? If xians and muslims could do this, atheist would have zero interest in having blogs like these because there is so much more interesting things in the world to spend our time on.
November 19th, 2006 at at 8:51 pm
Stardust, again the motivation comes from the fact that Christianity is true. If it were merely a privitized opinion, that would be different.
Plus (and I am joking a bit here, so we can all laugh a little, can’t we) think of how much more interesting it is to have the opposing view think enough of your atheistic blog to come by and chat awhile. I am merely stating my point of view (which I believe to be true, just as you believe your point of view to be true). Is this blog open to serious discussion or does it exist merely as an atheistic pep rally?
November 19th, 2006 at at 9:06 pm
“With the one exception, the list of links from my post are not isolated websites. Those links are just a small sampling of headlines about communities all over the world that are attempting to impose very real bans on homosexuals. Everything from limiting their right to be parents up to and including their right to exist in those communities. Most of it initiated “in the name of the Lord”.”
LBBP, I will be the first to admit that many Christians do not have a proper understanding of what it means to live biblically. I believe the Bible is true and accurate, thus I also believe homosexuality is wrong and people should not engage in the behavior. I do not think Scripture is necessary to teach this, nature itself (the size and fit of organs for example) should be clear indication of what is right and wrong in this matter.
On the other hand, I expect unbelievers to act like unbelievers. I expect those with depraved hearts to engage in depraved activity. Thus, I feel that these websites and the interface between church / government that underlies them is theologically inaccurate.
Of course it is unjust for a society to suffer because of the immoral behavior of certain people. Smokers for example cause the rest of society to pay a high price tag in dealing with their self-induced health difficulties. Homosexual behavior is similar in that it brings a number of burdens upon society as a whole, which is unjust.
But still, my job as a Christian is not to legislate morality. Without a change of heart, a change of behavior is useless ultimately (though it might increase the overall health of the society temporaily). Thus I believe that the answer to the issue of homosexuality is to show people the truth of Jesus Christ and His Word and pray that the Holy Spirit might open their eyes to see His glory.
Of course, just because one is born again does not completely iradicate sin from their lives, but generally does give them new desires, new goals, and a new direction. I believe the church promises way to much in unbiblcal proportions when she says, “You will not struggle with sin anymore.” A practicing homosexual might become a believer and struggle for the rest of his / her life with that sinful practice. Thank God that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Eph. 2:1-10).
I think all of those homosexual watchdog sights should change their focus to the disease instead of the symptom. They should also learn what the Bible teaches about struggling against flesh and blood. Ours is a spiritual battle.
Please do not make the mistake of grouping all Christians with many of the folks on that list. I know that there are many who identify there, and all true Christians are against homosexual behavior. But as for me, the model explained above makes more sense of the issue and is more in line with how the Bible would have Christians approach this difficult topic.
I suppose my model website on this issue would be Exodus International. Check it out. (www.exodus-international.org). I know that you totally disagree about their / my saying anything at all about the immorality of homosexuality. But you will notice these folks take a very loving and logical approach to the issue.
My overall point - Christians approach issues in many different ways, so to categorize them altogether and group them in a big bunch without justification is not really fair. I try my best not to do that with atheists or agnostics, understanding that there are many different stripes within the group.
November 19th, 2006 at at 9:11 pm
Dollar says: Is this blog open to serious discussion or does it exist merely as an atheistic pep rally?
If you want discussion, then please answer my questions that I have asked above.
Do xians believe they will get extra brownie points for how many times they proseltyze or for how many converts they win? Do they believe they will get extra rewards in they afterlife like a spectacular trip for two around the Milky Way? Do xians believe they will get preferred treatment from their imaginary sky daddy and become his “special pet” for having bothered the most people in on atheists sites in the blogosphere? Do xians believe they will get their own fluffy cloud and golden harp for being the most pious?
What’s in it for the xian to go around “witnessing” for Jeebus?
I really want to know what you expect for your proseltyzing and trying so hard to convince others that your gawd beliefs are true. I do not go around proseltyzing atheism. Most of the time atheists are discussing things that frustrate us, like xians trying to tell us how to live and trying to force religion into our secular government. Otherwise we wouldn’t give a hoot what you believed.
November 19th, 2006 at at 9:47 pm
Legislating against a group of people based on belief in a fairytale is imposition.
Your religion which is atheism is based on a set of beliefs and these beliefs lead you to your perception of truth. Jesus told Pilate the truth and Pilate said, “What is truth?”. He came into the world and the world knew Him not. Whether atheist, christian, or xianist legislator, there will always be imposition and with that an opposing group. So, the war rages on as men/women impose their idea of truth.
November 19th, 2006 at at 10:46 pm
Do xians believe they will get extra brownie points for how many times they proseltyze or for how many converts they win? Do they believe they will get extra rewards in they afterlife like a spectacular trip for two around the Milky Way? Do xians believe they will get preferred treatment from their imaginary sky daddy and become his “special pet” for having bothered the most people in on atheists sites in the blogosphere? Do xians believe they will get their own fluffy cloud and golden harp for being the most pious?
What’s in it for the xian to go around “witnessing” for Jeebus?
I apologize Dollar for stepping in.
stardust, there will be no points, no free trips, no preferential treatment, no fluffy cloud w/ a harp. Jesus did mention a mansion in John 14 and he also says for us to store up our treasure in heaven. The only true reward is eternal life in Heaven with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, the angels, the saints, and everything else that is there.
As for the witnessing, Jesus instructed his followers to go and make disciples which is called the Great Commission. All christians are called to do this. Another reason for me is because I understand and know how great this Love is that the Father has lavished on us and that eternal life in Hell is not something to laugh about. I don’t desire for you or anyone else to experience eternity that way. Speaking of eternity it was God who set eternity in the hearts of men and they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. Hope this helps you understand the way of the xian.
November 20th, 2006 at at 6:44 am
Immaneul…I am 52-years-old. I was a xian, Sunday school superintendent for more than three decades. Over the years, I had been a church member of the Lutheran variety, Baptist variety and Presbyterian variety..(they all think each other is wrong in biblical interpretation by the way.) I have read the bible twice through, and have spent hours in bible study. In college I studied Bible as literature in a social context, world religions, world mythologies, anthropology, psychology, and other courses in the social sciences. (Point is, I am not coming from an uneducated background and viewpoint). I have been baptised as an infant…and then again as a teenager…sprinkling the first time, and dunking the other…so you would think that this gawd would really be with me! LOL! But he remained silent (because gods do not exist). I saw people…even my own niece and sister pray and act all holy when it came to saving a stranger’s soul, but want nothing to do with these same people whom they wish to convert. (Don’t tell me you are sorry for these few xians who are not “true xians”…most xians are like this.) Church is a country club for a social gathering of friends…which is the good part. But the same kind of “fellowship” can come from any type of group getting together from bowling teams, to knitting circles, book groups, etc. Only the knitting circles, bowling teams, book groups, and other activities outside of religion are more fun. (If you really truly believe in jeebus, why don’t you give up all your worldly goods and be a nomad like he was? Because you want the afterlife, but not the Jeebus life.)
What I think, coming from my years of experience as a xian, is that xians just want numbers to reinforce their fantasies, and to build up their faith because without numbers you have nothing but your doubts, and your doubts will grow and take over until you would have to face the reality that there is no god, gods goddesses, or any supernatural beings, mansions in the sky and other things contained in your own delusions about life after death.
Xians are so obsessed with atheists and those who do not believe like they do because they wish REINFORCEMENT for the fantasy. That is what is in it for you, if you were really honest about it. The more sheeple you can recruit, the more you can keep lying to yourself and saying that the mythology is truth because you know deep down that no sky daddy is going to come down and tap you on the shoulder and say…hey! here I am!
November 20th, 2006 at at 6:46 am
Correction to above comment…I have spent YEARS in bible studies.
November 20th, 2006 at at 7:56 am
Stardust, I did answer your questions. I am motivated by the fact that Christianity is true. My motivation is that of love. I want the very best for the most people. Truth sets people free. As for atheism, if you believe that your perspective is true, you too should feel obligated to help others see the “truth.” (Which I think you are motivated in the same way that I am).
November 20th, 2006 at at 11:56 am
Correction to above comment…I have spent YEARS in bible studies.
So, why all the questions?
November 20th, 2006 at at 1:13 pm
Is this blog open to serious discussion or does it exist merely as an atheistic pep rally?
For the most part, it is in fact an atheist pep rally. You have your weekly brain washing sessions at church. There your priest tells you how worthless you are without Jesus, and you repeat the same tired prayers over and over ad nauseum. Atheists form loose social communities to discuss philosophy, science, or current events, and most importantly to cavetch about xians.
But, let’s be honest, you’re not really interested in serious discussion anyway. You’re not here to reflect on your faith or seriously consider an atheistic viewpoint. Your here to tell us we’re wrong, that not all xians are as bad as we think they are, and that if we don’t find Jesus (If he’s so great why is he always lost?) were going to hell.
There is no humility in your position. Yes, I know you will say the same about mine. However, the big difference is that you think that you already have all of the answers, where as I am still looking for them. My outrage is not against xians, it’s against anyone that thinks they really know anything. The “truth” is you could be wrong. The Muslims could be right, in which case you’re going to hell. The Buhdists could be right, in which case no one is going to hell. More likely, no one is right and the truth is some as yet imponderable none of us has even considered.
“Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.” — Thomas Paine
November 20th, 2006 at at 1:30 pm
Immaneul…I am 52-years-old. I was a xian [...]
The more sheeple you can recruit, the more you can keep lying to yourself and saying that the mythology is truth because you know deep down that no sky daddy is going to come down and tap you on the shoulder and say…hey! here I am!
I’m not sure why, but this was in moderation until I noticed it this morning.
Wow, you were in even deeper than I was! I lost any semblance of faith soon after I went to college. I can certainly relate to the whole family still in it thing. My father is a semi-retired Episcopalian priest, and my wife is the day school director at the local Episcopalian church.
November 20th, 2006 at at 3:38 pm
But he remained silent…
stardust, he is anything but silent. God is always speaking. We are the ones that cannot see or hear spiritually. It is the Holy Spirit that gives us eyes to see and ears to hear Him. This may shock you to hear a xian say this but religion does suck because when the Spirit is quenched and not allowed to move because of man’s rules I could think of a hundred other things to be doing than sitting in a religious meeting without the Holy Spirit there. You may remember a scripture talking about the Holy Spirit being like the wind, you cannot see it but only the affects of it. This is still true today. Paul urges us to eagerly desire the greater gifts. My point mainly is to say that unless you go beyond belief and begin to experience God and the baptism of the Holy Spirit in dreams, visions, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, then yes to stay saved or not lose your faith is getting harder and harder to do. It is not a question of salvation, but how much of God are you experiencing?. We can argue belief for the rest of our lives, but when someone tells you about an experience or encounter with God and because you have never experienced such a thing this only leads you to unbelief. Unfortunately, there will always be doubting Thomas’ in the world who may never get the sign that they so mockingly suggest.
November 20th, 2006 at at 6:41 pm
Immanuel, god is silent because he is a figment of human imagination. No evidence has been found for this god except in the minds of humans. You write the same borg-like statements that all xians are taught to say…like robots. It is not up to me to tell others what to believe, or what to think…BUT I can tell you to keep your superstitious beliefs and delusions out of my life and our secular government.
God is silent, because gods do not exist…simple as that. Until you come up with some solid evidence for the existence of this god, that will be the atheists stance. You are making the claim, it is up to you to prove it. And without using your ancient texts.
Another point…IF this god did exist, he is merely a sadistic dick and I wouldn’t want anything to do with him anyway. The bible is full of stories of god ordering the deaths of mere infants, thousands and thousands of innocent people…horrible stories that I am now very sorry I taught to my children when they were little. The bible is full of horrific events, pornography and other things that most people would never let their children see at a movie theater…but they will hand them this awful book!
If this god created the world, he created evil. He created the way it is. An all -powerful god, all knowing god could have created the world any way he chose to. Well, nothing, not one single thing in the universe lasts forever, not us, not animals, not the stars, nor anything lasts. The natural world in all it’s beauty contains gruesome unavoidable realities…one creature feeding upon another just to survive. Then every living thing has to expel waste and get illnesses and breaks down…injuries, terminal illnesses and eventually die. What kind of shitty design is that for an all powerful creator?
But we know that nature is nature and we have no control over it and must accept things as they are. Xians and believers in all superstitions reject this reality and have created a way to cope with the realities of nature in the world and in the universe.
Like I said, it is not my “obligation” to convert people to atheism…it’s a free country. However, I do wish that you religious folks would keep your beliefs to yourself too and we would all get along much better. Religion divides…and brings war and conflict. Get rid of religion and we will see a huge advancement to becoming truly civilized.
It’s sad how xians live for death. The Abrahamic religions are all “death cults”. Atheists do not walk around waiting for death. We know it will happen someday, and I accept that it will be my end and I am glad for the time I have had on this planet. I wish it could be longer…but reality of nature says it isn’t meant to be. It is better to accept it with dignity than whimpering and hoping for a magic kingdom in the clouds.
I am much happier and at peace since leaving that all xianity bullcrap behind. I am happy to have found atheist groups and blogs online where I can be with people who share my views. However, I am not going to become a door-knocker for my non-beliefs…but if you come knocking on mine, I WILL tell you what I think.
November 20th, 2006 at at 6:44 pm
Forgot to answer this one…So, why all the questions?
To make YOU think about why you believe in such hocus pocus. You come to an atheist site, you are not the one in control. We are. Open your eyes and SEE the reality…your religion is a crutch. Free yourself. You don’t need a crutch.
November 20th, 2006 at at 7:26 pm
Wow, you were in even deeper than I was! I lost any semblance of faith soon after I went to college. I can certainly relate to the whole family still in it thing. My father is a semi-retired Episcopalian priest, and my wife is the day school director at the local Episcopalian church.
LBBP- Yeah, it took awhile. My husband and I didn’t go to church much during our first couple years of marriage. Then when we had kids we thought it was the right thing to do since that is how we were brought up. But our xian beliefs started dwindling as we were trying to explain questions to our adolescent kids and our answers were sounding more and more bizarre…like explaining how Santa claus gets into our house when we don’t have a chimney and one lie snowballs into another and another. It all sounds quite bizarre after awhile. The turning point to making us leave was when our daughter wasn’t saying the confessional prayer during a morning worship service like everyone else and my husband asked her why she wasn’t saying it and she said “Because it says that I am bad and I am NOT bad” (she was the sweetest little child in the world and how could we tell her YES…you are bad…). We walked away at that point and never looked back. It took awhile for us to “come out” to our family. My parents didn’t seem to care…but the Baptist family members…holy shit…they just won’t let up sometimes. I get emails from an aunt in North Carolina I have hardly ever seen over the years and she is worried about “not seeing me in heaven”…LOL!
My parents are “lukewarm Lutherans” as are my two brothers and their kids, my sister and her daughter are Baptists (her son-in-law is a youth pastor), my relatives in North Carolina are southern Baptists (who believe we northern relatives are ALL heathens whether believers in a god or not), my mother’s side of the family are all German Lutheran Missouri Synod (gloom and doomers), my two sis in laws are Catholic (ritual nuts who believe that all other xian sects have it wrong). My husband and I were Presbyterians when we left xianity (another pretty moderate sect so it wasn’t like we were “escaping” anything fanatical ) . So, we have a real mixture of religion in our family. It’s always when the Baptists are around that there has to be prayers and stuff…my husband and I excuse ourselves from the room for that. We have tolerated a lot over the years, but we feel that we don’t have to anymore. Why should we be the ones respecting their beliefs all the time and them not respecting us? We get fed up after so much catering to everyone else.
November 21st, 2006 at at 8:39 am
If this god created the world, he created evil. He created the way it is. An all -powerful god, all knowing god could have created the world any way he chose to. Well, nothing, not one single thing in the universe lasts forever, not us, not animals, not the stars, nor anything lasts. The natural world in all it’s beauty contains gruesome unavoidable realities…one creature feeding upon another just to survive. Then every living thing has to expel waste and get illnesses and breaks down…injuries, terminal illnesses and eventually die. What kind of shitty design is that for an all powerful creator?
God is silent, because gods do not exist…simple as that. Until you come up with some solid evidence for the existence of this god, that will be the atheists stance. You are making the claim, it is up to you to prove it.
This is what the fallen state of man has done. After the fall, God declared judgement over the earth and man because of sin. God intended for us to be in the garden with him even now. God did not create evil. When Satan fell that is when evil entered our world. Its not satan’s fault that Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They were given a choice at that moment and chose wrongly instead of obeying what God had told Adam not to do. We were in Adam’s bosom before time began and it was God’s original design for us to be in communion with him forever.
As for proof, the proof is in Jesus Christ. He came into this world to reveal the heart of the Father, but even then there was mocking and unbelief. The only difference between us is that I believe Jesus for who he said that he is and you don’t. God in the flesh walked the streets of Jerusalem for three years telling them who he was and where he came from but yet there was still unbelief even after the signs and wonders. They saw the miracles but yet still did not believe. I could send you videos, testimonies, and any other source that I could think of but there would be doubt and unbelief. This is why I said in a previous response that we have to go beyond belief and begin to experience the power of His Holy Spirit for ourselves. The kingdom of Heaven is not a matter of talk but of power.
Read about Smith Wigglesworth, Charles Finney, Charles Parham, John Wesley, Evan Roberts, the Moravians, Rolland and Heidi Baker, and Todd Bentley: these people saw and are seeing the power of God move in their day and now. These are only a few who have seen and been used by God to perform the signs and wonders that no one wants to believe.
November 21st, 2006 at at 9:12 am
“For the most part, it is in fact an atheist pep rally. You have your weekly brain washing sessions at church.”
So is this your brainwashing session? With all do respect, atheists tend to speak out of both sides of their mouths. You guys want the world to think you are independent critical thinkers, when in fact you have your own organizations and get-togethers like everyone else. BTW, thanks for comming over to this bread. I appreciate you taking the time to do that, though you used an ad hominem logical fallacy, calling me “sick” and not dealing with the data.
“But, let’s be honest, you’re not really interested in serious discussion anyway. You’re not here to reflect on your faith or seriously consider an atheistic viewpoint.”
I am here for serious discussion. I do not claim to know it all. In fact my personal claim is infinite stupidity. That is why I have decided to set my own opinions aside and trust someone who seems to know more than me - namely, Christ. If I thought I knew it all, I would not lean so heavily upon Him and His teaching. Paine’s quote reveals his ignorance of how to test statements / documents for truth content.
“No evidence has been found for this god except in the minds of humans.”
Stardust, you know better then this… We have the exact same evidence. Romans 1:20, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, so that they are without excuse.” When you say “no” evidence you are denying the existence of the universe, I suppose. We are all looking at the same evidence and coming to different conclusions. What you should say, to be more consistent logically, is - “Christians misinterpret the evidence.” You will be taken more seriously if you do this, because it will seem like you understand better what you are talking about.
“If this god created the world, he created evil. He created the way it is. An all -powerful god, all knowing god could have created the world any way he chose to.”
Stardust, God does all things for His own glory. He created the world with the capacity for evil and sufferning so that He receives a maximized glory from it. He is God-centered, not man-centered. He loves Himself more than man (or else He would not send them to Hell). I know that you can’t buy this theology, but my point is that evil and the existence of God can be logically reconciled. Most atheist philosophers have left this one alone and moved to the problem of pointless evil instead. You simply rant about it without thinking through the logic of it. I am not saying you have to believe, just see that the problem of evil is not a problem. Surely you have better arguments.
Read my blog post on this issue at http://thisbread.blogspot.com/2006/11/god-does-all-things-for-his-own-glory.html
“Open your eyes and SEE the reality…your religion is a crutch. Free yourself. You don’t need a crutch.”
Stardust, I will be the first to admit that I do need a crutch. It is important to say, however, that the need for a crutch is not a sign of insanity. In fact, the one who sees the need and responds properly seems to be the one who is thinking correctly.
“Religion divides…and brings war and conflict.” - Correction, truth divides. This is the nature of reality and to deny it is live with your head in the sand. People fight over many many issues, religious reasons are included. But if everyone was an atheist, believe me, people would still be fighting over economic issues, land, etc. You have committed another logical fallacy here, revealing that you are not thinking deeply enough about the issues.
Sorry I could not answer everyone and equally sorry if I come across the wrong way. Truthfully, I am enjoying our interchange and feel it is mutually beneficial. I apologize for the many, many non-thinking Christians you all have encountered and recognize our ingnorance by and large on important issues.
November 21st, 2006 at at 2:40 pm
I apologize for the many, many non-thinking Christians you all have encountered and recognize our ingnorance by and large on important issues.
Dollar, It’s funny that this is the standard and often stated programmed apology that we hear from many, many xians. It’s hard to take it seriously when so many say the exact same thing.
Also, you are using the ancient text of mythology which was written by faulty humans for your evidence. If I said that llamas exist, I could to retrieve one from somewhere and bring it for you to observe and touch…and it would “talk” to you more than your invisible imaginary friend does.
Funny how this god is only “felt” or “heard” by people who want to believe it, like children who wish to believe in fairies, unicorns, goblins, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Children believe with all their hearts that these things exist…yet they do not. This god belief is just a clinging to a childlike wish for something to be true.
As for religion causing division…it isn’t that “truth” divides…it is the various VERSIONS of what people wish to believe is the truth. If you packed representatives from all the denominations of xianity alone into one stadium it is my bet that you would spend an eternity trying to convince each other that your individual interpretations and understanding of YOUR truth is THE truth. You may even kill yourselves trying. I look at the overall xian demoninations and all the claims of being the “True Xians” and it is all so silly to see people in such disagreement about who has the “real” imaginary sky daddy.
I am sorry you were taught to need the crutch. I am fortunate enough to have found faith in myself enough not to need it. There is nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. Many mythologies were once a peoples’ religion, and this is just what xianity is…someday it may be replaced by something else. If humanity is lucky, religion will no longer be needed at all in some distant future.
As for going to your website…I don’t frequent xian blogs and you are not going to bait me over there because I know all too well what your real “mission” is here…you want to win converts to Jeebus.
Well, this fish isn’t taking the bait.
November 21st, 2006 at at 9:30 pm
The atheist alliance says that they are “…the only democratic atheist organization in the United States…” Does that mean there might be some atheist somewhere that is not democratic?
What an odd thing!!! This is like saying there are denominations within the atheist community. How could this be? The parallels are startling.
November 21st, 2006 at at 10:23 pm
With all seriousness, I am going all in with this one.
LBBP, there may not be atheistic crusades but there are certainly atheist conferences. We just missed the AAI convention in Sept. up in Penn. but we haven’t missed the ‘6th Atheist Conference’ being held in Vijayawada, India. Sounds like the same type of brain washing meetings that I attend.
Here is the offer: stardust, LBBP, and ~IAM~, this is just for you. You pick which atheistic conference you want to attend and I will pick which xianist conference I want to attend and then somehow we would go incognito. I haven’t figured out all the details, but I would be willing to pay your way to both conferences. Remember, the kingdom of Heaven is not a matter of talk but of Power. Are you ready to go beyond belief? I am willing to go and discover the TRUTH with whoever that wants to know once and for all the TRUTH!!!
November 21st, 2006 at at 10:26 pm
What an odd thing!!! This is like saying there are denominations within the atheist community. How could this be? The parallels are startling.
In the real world, we call these differences of opinion, which are based on arguments and interpretation of facts. In the religious world the denominations simply correspond to the number of opportunist power-hungry crooks who decided to create a religion in order to generate wealth and power.
November 21st, 2006 at at 10:30 pm
Immanuel….atheism is not a religion and no matter how you try, you will not be able to “borg” us into your xian “worldview.” Atheists might have different viewpoints on things and varying political opinions etc, and we may not always agree on various issues in society, however, atheists do not resort to believing in imaginary invisible friends and other fantasies like thinking you are going to go somewhere over the rainbow when you die. There is absolutely NO PARALLELS on the AA website for delusions, superstitions, evil gods, angels, devils, nor any other mythological beliefs.
Xians are so used to “cherry picking” and taking things out of context in their own religion that it has become a habit. You must read, and not skim things nor pick and choose what you want to use for your own purposes to create your own meaning for things. You highlighted the subtitle to Atheist Alliance without actually reading the website.
Atheist Alliance International (AAI) is an organization of independent religion-free groups and individuals in the United States and around the world. Our primary goals are to help democratic, atheistic societies become established and grow and to work in coalition with like-minded groups to advance rational thinking through educational processes. Virtually all income goes to these causes. We have little paid staff. Our members make all the decisions and do almost all of the work.
November 21st, 2006 at at 10:34 pm
Here is the offer: stardust, LBBP, and ~IAM~, this is just for you. You pick which atheistic conference you want to attend and I will pick which xianist conference I want to attend and then somehow we would go incognito.
Now I am getting pissed because you, like a typical xian you are, are NOT READING what I have written. I was a xian for more than THREE DECADES and need no more of it. I have REJECTED IT. It is mythology and nothing more. I do think that you should read some Dawkins, Harris and Dennett…and take your religion and SHOVE IT.
November 21st, 2006 at at 11:08 pm
And for good measure, throw in “Guns, Germs and Steel” by Jared Diamond.
November 21st, 2006 at at 11:12 pm
Tommykey…Now I have another book to add to my reading list. Looks like a good one.
November 21st, 2006 at at 11:26 pm
stardust, I have read what you have written. All I am saying is, go somewhere where the Spirit of the Lord is moving and experience the power of the Holy Spirit. Your were a xian for all those years without any teaching, very little belief, or practice of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The denominations that you were a part of and just like a lot of the church today don’t understand or want to believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The same baptism that was experienced in Acts is still true today. This is not a statement denying salvation, but a statement of go beyond belief and begin to experience the fullness of God.
For me to bring the sick or the dead to your doorstep, so that you can see the miracle is the same attitude as the ones that were there that day when Jesus was on the cross and they were yelling at Him to come down if he was the Son of God. God will only reveal himself to the heart that is seeking Him and not the one mocking Him. There is more to Christianity than just sitting in a church, listening to another slick message, or going to homecoming and stuffing your face. The more is in Holy Spirit and what He does in us and through us to touch this world. I plead your Blood, Jesus!!!
November 21st, 2006 at at 11:39 pm
In the real world, we call these differences of opinion, which are based on arguments and interpretation of facts. In the religious world the denominations simply correspond to the number of opportunist power-hungry crooks who decided to create a religion in order to generate wealth and power.
Have you ever heard of C.T. Studd? Probably not, he gave up more money than you or I will probably ever make in our lifetime unless you are the guy that is so rich that you won’t stand up to save some money on your car insurance. He was trained a missionary in China under Hudson Taylor and after that spent the majority of his life in Africa. Amazingly, there was at least one honest one in your basket of power-hungry crooks. Don’t be foolish enough to think that he was or is the only one.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 12:04 am
our were a xian for all those years without any teaching, very little belief, or practice of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Immanuel…you don’t even know me. I was once a believer in all this absurdity. I was a sunday school TEACHER and very involved in a variety of denominations. I said this before…you have not read very thoroughly if you did read. This belief is so imbedded in you because you want to believe it. Well, I don’t. You xians just don’t stop…because you have doubts and if you can convince us then you can convince yourself. Being a past xian, I know what a threat “doubt” is…because doubts lead to FREETHINKING if you give in to those doubts.
I have addressed the issue of ALL xian denominations claiming to having the “true xianity” and you have ignored that and still claim YOUR VERSION to be the truth…when in fact it is all a bunch of superstitious nonsense. You all claim to have the truth. If you were put into a room with all other xian denominations, you would all end up killing each over who holds the truest truth. You are all wrong…religion and xianity is a BIG LIE…and you xians are the ones lying to yourselves.
Your religion and bible are as gruesome as a bloody horror flick. Your “symbol” is an execution device. Blood, gore, violence, death, vindictiveness against innocent babies, innocent people and the beautiful planet earth itself. It is a pornographic as any porn movie. It is disgusting and disturbing when you really, really consider the content of the bible. It is grotesque and quite bizarre once you can step out of it and actually analyze it. It is also absurd. It is absurd to believe that an all knowing and all powerful entity to set up such disgusting methods for coercion. This god sets up his “children” for failure and then create a son for himself to torture and murder, and then bring back to life and that is quite bizarre as Cronos eating his children. Your only “goal” in life is to go to heaven because earth is “bad”. So why put people here in the first place? It is because it’s a hodge podge of mythological tales created by humans in an attempt to explain things that they did not understand. It is just as aburd a story as any of the world mythologies.
People no longer believe the world is flat…why the hell can’t they let go of these ancient beliefs.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 12:25 am
Immanuel…you have been coming here and telling us what we should do and how we need to find god…well why don’t YOU read some mythology and free yourself from those ancient chains of religious superstition? No lightning bolt will come down and strike you dead, so no need to be afraid. Read some world mythologies, which are much older than your xian mythology, and you will learn how your religion “evolved” from and incorporated other religions, particularily Mithraism.
Mithras and Mithraism
“Roman Mithras was perhaps the greatest rival to early Christianity for many reasons. As well as being a popular pagan religion practised by the Roman Army, Mithraism had many similarities to Christianity. Mithras was born of a virgin, remained celibate, his worship involving baptism, the partaking of bread marked with a cross and wine as sacrificial blood, held Sundays sacred and Mithras was born on 25th of December. Mithraist called themselves ‘brother’ and were led by a priest called ‘father’ (Pater). The symbol of the father were a staff, a hooked sword, a ring and hat.
These similarities frightened the early Christian leaders - that almost 500 years before arrival of Christ all of the Christian mysteries were already known. To combat this, Christian writers said that the Devil knew of the coming of Christ in advance and had imitated them before they existed in order to denigrate them. As Christianity gained strength and became the formal religion of the Roman Empire, the ‘Cult of Mithras’ was one of the first pagan cults to come under attack in the fifth century; Temples of Mithras, like most other pagan Temples, were destroyed and Churches built on them.”
Also Constantine and Mithraism
November 22nd, 2006 at at 12:56 am
Have you ever heard of C.T. Studd? Probably not, he gave up more money than you or I will probably ever make in our lifetime unless you are the guy that is so rich that you won’t stand up to save some money on your car insurance. He was trained a missionary in China under Hudson Taylor and after that spent the majority of his life in Africa. Amazingly, there was at least one honest one in your basket of power-hungry crooks. Don’t be foolish enough to think that he was or is the only one.
Did CT Studd create a religion? No, so your whole response isn’t relevant to what I said. CT Studd was a victim of the religion, not the creator.
While it’s been a while since I’ve read that book, if I recall I didn’t find it that interesting. Question of the book is- why did societies in different geographical locations develop at different rates? Well, the only answer to that question is obvious-geography!. He does go into some detail though, if your interested in that. Alternatively, you could download the TV documentary series. It’s 3 parts, highly repetitive, but it gives you the idea.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 12:04 pm
I’ve seen Dollar say this at least twice now:
“Stardust, you know better then this… We have the exact same evidence. Romans 1:20, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, so that they are without excuse.” When you say “no” evidence you are denying the existence of the universe, I suppose. We are all looking at the same evidence and coming to different conclusions. What you should say, to be more consistent logically, is - “Christians misinterpret the evidence.” You will be taken more seriously if you do this, because it will seem like you understand better what you are talking about.”
I’m sorry but what kind of twisted logic is this? Oh, I know, it is circular logic, ie logical fallacy. No, you do not have the same evidence as us, because the universe is not evidence for god unless one has already made the circular assumption that god created the universe. See, it’s circular because you make an assumption that god created the universe, then look at the universe and say, “See, it’s here because god created it, which proves my assumption.” It’s like defining a word with itself. So, before you go off on others not knowing what they are talking about, you might want to clean your own house.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 12:23 pm
No, you do not have the same evidence as us, because the universe is not evidence for god unless one has already made the circular assumption that god created the universe.
OMGF - This is a good point. When xians do not understand something or cannot explain how something came to be they automatically say “god made it, therefore there is a god” Twisted logic is indeed what it is. It’s exactly as you said “like defining a word with itself.” I think Dollar needs to add Carl Sagan to that reading list we have started putting together for Immanuel in above comments. A course in Logic and reasoning might be beneficial for both of them, as well.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 1:32 pm
You know, now that I think about it, Dollar’s logical fallacy might better be described as begging the question rather than circular reasoning. Either way, it’s still illogical.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 3:08 pm
No, see what Dollar doesn’t understand is that the universe is evidence for Vishnu, the Hindu god. How so you may ask? Well, Vishnu created the universe, so we see evidence for Vishnu’s existence everywhere we go!
November 22nd, 2006 at at 3:30 pm
Well, Vishnu created the universe, so we see evidence for Vishnu’s existence everywhere we go!
Delta…and there are the four Vedas to prove it!
November 22nd, 2006 at at 11:40 pm
I said this before…you have not read very thoroughly if you did read. This belief is so imbedded in you because you want to believe it. Well, I don’t. You xians just don’t stop…because you have doubts and if you can convince us then you can convince yourself. .
I am reading, you’ve been there done that but you never experienced anything. Were you ever given a dream or a vision from Skydaddy? Did you ever receive a word of prophecy? Did you ever have the discernment of spirits? Did you ever speak in tongues or given the interpretation for the tongues? Did you receive a word of knowledge for someone? Did you ever see a miracle or healing?
This what I keep saying over and over, go beyond belief and experience Skydaddy for yourself.
As for doubts, you are the one with doubts. I only have faith coupled with knowledge out of experiences from the above questions that you unfortunately will say no to all of the above.
November 23rd, 2006 at at 12:53 am
Let’s suppose there is an enemy and there is no understanding or knowledge that an enemy even exists. Isn’t this the perfect scenario for said enemy to overtake the ignorant?
I personally have had three encounters with demonic possession. When someone’s eyes go black, I mean empty, dark, and evil looking, and they start yelling and hissing at you, it didn’t take long to figure out that this is not natural, but something spiritual taking place. There is an enemy and they are spiritual beings. We are caught in the middle of a spiritual battle for our very souls.
A book that talks about this very thing is ‘He came to set the captives free’ by Rebecca Brown, MD. (ISBN: 0883683237). This is the story of one of the top witches in the US and how she was delivered from the bondage of satanic worship. Her title was ‘bride of satan’,she literally married satan in a ceremony, in her day she was the most powerful witch in the US. She also shares about the satanic church and their demonic, horrifying practices, such as, human sacrifice. The first 90-100 pages will freak you out to say the least. In the book, she shares about astral-projection, shape changing, and all the other demonic activities that go on in the satanic church.
The missionaries that work in Africa see this stuff all the time. Ask them if they believe in the spiritual.
If you can’t start with believing in Jesus, then start with the spiritual. Its real. satan talks in the first person extremely well. One of those voices or thoughts in your head is probably him!!! Those fiery arrows from Ephesians 6 are the thoughts that he plants in our minds and what we do from there is where our ‘free-will’ begins. Wisdom and Folly are both standing at the city gates, they are both crying out to this generation. The only problem is that Folly is screaming and Wisdom whispering. Holy Spirit give us eyes to see and ears to hear so that we can know and understand the things of the spirit.
November 23rd, 2006 at at 1:12 am
No, so your whole response isn’t relevant to what I said. CT Studd was a victim of the religion, not the creator.
I apologize, you are right. I was so eager to pounce with a response that I misunderstood the comment. So, let me try this again. How are Martin Luther, John Wesley, or William Seymour opportunistic power-hungry crooks?
November 23rd, 2006 at at 8:57 am
I am reading, you’ve been there done that but you never experienced anything. Were you ever given a dream or a vision from Skydaddy?
You obviously have a comprehension problem or are so eager to try to convert me that you are not reading everything I write…I USED TO BELIEVE. Now I don’t because I “saw the light” of reality. Xian mythology is like all other mythology — a coping device for the problems and fears in life.
There are no sky daddy’s…none. You have given us zero evidence for the existence of a sky daddy except from your ancient xian mythology book.
I personally have had three encounters with demonic possession. When someone’s eyes go black, I mean empty, dark, and evil looking, and they start yelling and hissing at you, it didn’t take long to figure out that this is not natural, but something spiritual taking place.
Immanuel…you obviously are in need of a psychiatrist, and I don’t say that in a mean way. If you are experiencing this kind of thing, then you have a serious mental problem. Get some help. You are quite a scary individual if you are not joking.
What missionaries are encountering overseas is someone else’s superstitious beliefs. Humans create crutches to explain things or to help allieviate their fears about things they have no control over. There are many of us, however, who realize and accept that there are indeed things we cannot control, and shit that happens in life and we just roll with it. However, superstitious people believe they can somehow magically change reality…it is better for you to accept reality instead of going around life mentally ill.
Again…get some help.
That’s all I, personally have to say to you.
November 23rd, 2006 at at 6:25 pm
Isn’t it interesting that almost all of these supposed stories of demonic possession seem to take place in Africa, where the only word we have to go on is that of the person or persons who carried out the exorcism?
November 23rd, 2006 at at 11:32 pm
Tommykey - And it’s also interesting that this “demonic possession” seems to occur within certain groups of believers, and those brought up in religions that believe in demons and evil spirits. Similar to the “speaking in tongues” drama that goes on in many pentecostal churches. You don’t see these people dropping to the floor, shaking and speaking in jibberish anywhere else but inside their own churches. None “get the spirit” in malls, grocery stores, amusement parks, etc. etc. It’s a cult phenomenon that is kept pretty much in the company of their peers who are all doing it too.
However, when people like Immanuel start talking of being demon possessed and hearing “satan” talking to them…it is time for serious psychiatric intervention. From Wikipedia Those who profess a belief in demonic possession have sometimes ascribed the symptoms associated with mental illnesses such as hysteria, mania, psychosis, or dissociative identity disorder to possession. There is, however, a mental disease called demonomania or demonopathy. This is a monomania in which the patient believes that he or she is possessed by one or more demons. Emotional monomania is that in which the patient is obsessed with only one emotion or several related to it; intellectual monomania is that which is related to only one kind of delirious idea or ideas.
Medicine can explain some aspects of the “symptoms” shown by those persons allegedly possessed; it is known that “supernatural strength” is common in some cases of insanity (maniacs, energumens, etc.).
November 24th, 2006 at at 6:06 am
How many atheists have been possessed by demons? How many church-goers? Seems like atheists are much safer, and if one doesn’t want to be possessed, one should avoid church.
November 24th, 2006 at at 7:48 am
and if one doesn’t want to be possessed, one should avoid church.
OMGF - LOL! Looking back on it all, all xian sects seem rather spooky in one way or another.
Xians always say that the devil is lurking and trying to steer people away from gawd. Maybe the gawd of the bible is really the devil.
Maybe satan set up religion and churches to lure the majority of sheeple away from gawd? Many of their rituals are creepy…drinking “blood” and eating “flesh” (even if it is representational it is still creepy…catholics actually believe that wine and wafer become real flesh and blood..ewww) When xians tell me that satan planted dinosaur bones in the ground to fool us (along with other absurd “theories” about satan leading believers astray), I tell them maybe satan planted all this religion crap to lure as many people away from gawd as he could and they all follow satan like sheeple to slaughter? Maybe they are ALL misinterpreting the mythology.
When studied side by side with other mythologies, I think that xianity is the scariest.
November 24th, 2006 at at 1:36 pm
I don’t mean to scare any you. I don’t understand how I need a psychiatrist, when I wasn’t the one doing the yelling. Also, I wasn’t the only person to witness this. I am just sharing some of my experiences with you so that all of you reading these comments can know that there is a spiritual side to the world that we live in. Read the book that I cited. All of you are so quick to explain everything away with some kind of scientific explanation. I don’t claim to know everything but I do know what I have experienced. There is no psychosis involved, only a spiritual experience that cannot be explained by natural means. As stated in a previous comment, atheist’s have the doubt and unbelief. I only have faith coupled with knowledge and understanding from spiritual experiences. There is no benefit for me in telling you any of this, but it would be selfish of me to not tell you about the reality of things unseen so that you all might know for yourselves. There are many things spiritually that I have not experienced but that does not mean that I don’t believe in the reality of such experiences because I haven’t expereinced them. Your gawd is your mind and your religion is your science. Whether any of us believe in the reality of God or spiritual things, it will never change the reality of their existence. For those of you that have been following this conversation and would like to talk in private you can email me__immanuel.now@gmail.com.
I Love You all and hope and pray that you all will have an encounter with Elohim, the creator of the Heavens and the Earth. Blessings.
November 24th, 2006 at at 1:46 pm
“There are many things spiritually that I have not experienced but that does not mean that I don’t believe in the reality of such experiences because I haven’t expereinced them.”
Then, you believe in the reality of the experiences that people have had with Vishnu?
November 24th, 2006 at at 2:26 pm
I don’t mean to scare any you. I don’t understand how I need a psychiatrist, when I wasn’t the one doing the yelling.
I wasn’t going to comment to you anymore, but I just want to stress once again that you do need some help if you are indeed hearing voices and seeing demons and people possessed, etc.
#1… it is pretty scary when we have people like yourself going around believing in demons. Look how many people use the excuse that “the devil made me do it” after they murder some person or even their own children.
#2…even if you weren’t doing the yelling, but still believe it was anything other than hysteria or a psychological disorder, then indeed you also need a shrink. If there were more than one of you and you all believe the person was suffering from anything other than delusional hysteria or a psychological disorder, then you ALL need to see a shrink.
I don’t claim to know everything but I do know what I have experienced. . . . There is no psychosis involved,
Schizophrenics and people believe that their delusions and hallucinations are real. Those who suffer from mental illness do not realize they have a problem, just as you are protesting to us that there is no psychosis involved in yourself.
For those of you that have been following this conversation and would like to talk in private
This is oh so typical, too. Can’t win a debate or convert anyone in an open forum, so have to call for the “private brainwashing attempt.” I know all the evangelizing tricks.
November 24th, 2006 at at 4:47 pm
Correction to above email: immanuel.now@gmail.com feel free to ask any questions for those that are reading and following this conversation but have remained silent…
No tricks just truth.
As for Vishnu, yes, they expereinced something but was it the One true God. Satan can appear as an angel of light, He was an angelic creature but he will not profess Jesus Christ Son and Saviour. Did Vishnu send his son to die on the cross for the sins of all humanity? The problem here is you don’t believe in absolutes and I do. There is one true God, who had to send his son to die on the cross for the sins of man. God is the one who gave the commandment and so he is bound by his Word. In the garden, notice that Adam and Eve put on fig leaves but God went and got them animal skins to wear. God performed the first sacrifice for sins, this is why there must be the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins. God is the one that set the whole thing up and he is bound by his Word. God is the only creator and Satan can do nothing but mimic what God has done. Your absolute is that there is nothing, my absolute is that HE Is!!! Just as I am in this world, so is He in the Heavens!!!
November 24th, 2006 at at 5:20 pm
Did Vishnu send his son to die on the cross for the sins of all humanity?
This god of the xian mythology is one sicko. He could choose to set up the world any way he wanted, yet he rapes a virgin, then later tortures and kills his own son, and then brings him back to life. This doesn’t sound very loving to me. Normal and loving fathers would never kill one of their children to make the other ones kiss his ass and stay in line. This gawd of xian mythology isn’t very clever if he can’t come up with anything better than constant murdering of infants and innocent people. This gawd is as evil as any demon you describe.
No tricks just truth.
Immanuel thinks he has the “truth” just like all the other billions of xians and all the various sects within, muslims and all the various sects within, buddhists and all the various sects within, hindu and all the various sects within, and so on and so forth.
November 24th, 2006 at at 5:47 pm
A good question brought up in the Skeptic’s Dictionary on the subject of satan and demons (which this loving and wonderful gawd supposedly created) is why a “good” god would create things that are so wicked and evil. And, before you can bring up the subject of god giving them free will, why then did the Almighty not annihilate the “fallen angels” for “disobeying” and doing bad things as He is said to have done to his other creations when they failed to be righteous (save Noah and his family, of course).
Satan was allowed to set up his own kingdom in Hell and to send out devils to prowl the earth for converts. The demonic world seems to have been allowed to exist for one purpose only: to tempt humans to turn away from god (in other words, so god could dick with his creations…he must be bored up there or something?)
Why god would allow satan to do this is kind of explained in the Book of Job, where satan is described as an angel who works in cahoots with god. When Job asks why god let satan torment him the answer is blunt and final: “Hath thou an arm like the Lord?” The story of Job is interpreted in many different ways by theologians but nobody knows why a good god would allow satan live and torment the shit out of humans. Most xians answer with, “well,God is God and can do whatever He wants. Ours is not to question why, ours is but to do and die.”
And I know the likely answer a fundie will give for the reason for allowing satan to live…he wants a big end-of-times bloodbath to watch from on high so the world can be “saved” from “sin”…(which this god also invented if he created everything).
Seems that in the xian mythology, like so many others, humans were set up for failure from the very beginning and by the very one who supposedly created them.
Don’t you see the absurdity at all, Immanuel?
November 24th, 2006 at at 5:53 pm
God creates man for relationship. Man disobeys and judgement is declared. Without even knowing or realizing it, man gave up eternal life with God by disobeying Him. Now, God (as jacked up as it is in your mind) is making a way for man to come back into relationship with Him. He longs for us to know Him and experience His Love for us. Put yourself in his shoes, see this through his eyes and not me,me,me,me,me…what about how he feels? what about his thoughts? He gave up everything for us to come back into communion with Him. I think thats amazing and His Love who can fathom it. Yes, I could definetely have thought of a better way but it wasn’t for me or us to choose. stardust, your awesome but all this anger, its not good.
November 24th, 2006 at at 6:07 pm
Why do you always mistake disagreement with anger? I am not angry at all. I just think the whole xian mythology is as absurd as any other mythology. I get the feeling you have made out atheists to be who you are programmed to think they are and have this idea we are all angry just because we reject your beliefs.
Immanuel wrote:He gave up everything for us to come back into communion with Him.”
Wrong…if you believe this god is still alive, and Jesus is still alive, and are living eternally forever and ever…that is NOT giving up anything. That is just coming to earth for a little S&M vacation and then going home.
I can see Immanuel that you are just here to proseltyze your gawd beliefs. I feel sorry you will be wasting life subservient to the little voices in your head and a mythology that is not real. And after you are dead you won’t even know you are wrong…because you will no longer exist.
November 24th, 2006 at at 6:15 pm
stardust, I don’t claim to have all answers. At some point, faith comes in. God will always be a mystery while here on earth. There will always be an unanswered question. Only when we stand before Him will we know in full just as we are known. Sadly enough, it will be too late for those that didn’t want to believe while here on earth. Blessed are those that have believed yet not seen. We are blessed just for believing. And as I have already said, Go beyond belief and experience Him for yourself. The experience part seems to be throwing everyone for a loop because suddenly I turn into a schizo over something that you didn’t experience nor understand. What’s upsetting to me the most is to know that God is more concerned about the one that is lost….He truly loves each and everyone of you more than you can think or imagine, your natural mind will never understand such a Love because it did not come from this world.
November 24th, 2006 at at 6:33 pm
At some point, faith comes in
Immanuel, exactly…xianity and other religions are all nothing without faith. Your beliefs exist in your mind, so does your god, and demons just as Santa Claus is real to a child…because the child WANTS Santa to be real. You stated above that it’s not about “me,me,me,me,me”. Well, religion is indeed about “me, me, me, me” because if there wasn’t anything in it for YOU you would not give more than five seconds time to this religion. If there wasn’t that “hope” for eternal life for merely believing in something, you would not believe it. Therefore, you are a hypocrite if you say you don’t believe just in hopes of saving your own ass from dying (which is a scientifically proven impossibility).
I am confident that there is no sky daddy who is going to send me to some burning lake of fire for not believing he is real. That is your delusion, not mine.
November 24th, 2006 at at 7:49 pm
You stated above that it’s not about “me,me,me,me,me”. Well, religion is indeed about “me, me, me, me” because if there wasn’t anything in it for YOU you would not give more than five seconds time to this religion.
I said the ‘me part’ to infer that you are looking through your own eyes. We can know His heart, we can know how he sees us and that Love that surpasses all knowledge. No matter what man discovers in science, it will never compare to truly knowing the Love of Christ. How great this Love is that He has lavished on us by calling us sons and daughters. You don’t understand me because you don’t know Him. You were fearfully and wonderfully made, He knew you before you were in your mother’s womb. With one look of your eye, you can ravish His heart. You can touch His heart, You can stir up that Love up in Him. He Loves You that much!!! stardust, You are His daughter.
November 25th, 2006 at at 10:58 am
God creates man for relationship. Man disobeys and judgement is declared. Without even knowing or realizing it, man gave up eternal life with God by disobeying Him. Now, God (as jacked up as it is in your mind) is making a way for man to come back into relationship with Him.
Yeah, I had a friend once, and I demanded that he come with me to the park. He disobeyed, so I threw him out of my house and declared him persona non grata. Then, I found a hitman to have his family killed. But, I thought that I would give him a chance, so I called him and said that if he kisses my feet, abstains from eating pork, worships me daily, and sacrifices a couple goats that I will allow him to be my friend again. I still sent the hitman though.
On the contrary, he shows no love for us. If you love someone, you don’t make them jump through hoops to prove it to you daily.
Awesome. An all powerful god that is omniscient, yet he can’t come up with a system that is as good as one you could come up with?
I will second what stardust said. Disagreement is not the same as anger. The whole “angry atheist” stereotype is so overplayed and bigoted.
November 25th, 2006 at at 11:18 pm
OMGF,
You didn’t create your friend…
No hoop jumping here. Jesus came into this world because of Love, He spoke because of Love, He performed miracles because of Love, He died because of Love. He was Love in the flesh. He is Love. The whole Bible hangs upon Love because He is Love. He has only asked me to Love. It is just that simple. This is why religion kills, it puts burdens on people that God never intended for us to carry. Just Love that is all.
I was just being honest. I don’t understand everything He does and why He does it. I’m sure that we all could have thought of a better way. Personally, I would still rather be in the garden. Sin brought death into the world and this is how God has dealt with it.
I agree with you both. Anger and disagreement are not the same. Such strong disagreement was sending ripples or was it waves out into the blogosphere.
November 26th, 2006 at at 10:19 am
stardust, You are His daughter.
Immanuel…I am my mother and father’s daughter…not your imaginary friend’s. My REAL parents gave me life. They took care of me when sick, gave me the things I needed. They taught me right from wrong and how to stay safe from danger. My real parents still come visit me and I can hug them, and I can help them in return now that they are old. An imaginary being can only exist inside one’s mind and is whatever you want it to be in your own head…but unless other humans act, or you take care of things yourself, this imaginary friend is absolutely USELESS. Nothing happens without HUMAN action.
I do understand what you are saying, you cannot accept that I REJECT what you are saying and classify your religion as mythology. Your religion is mythology that you want very much to be true. We are going in circles here, and not much else to be said except that ZERO evidence has been found for the existence of your god except your dusty old mythology book which was written by imperfect humans, and is full of contradiction and inconsistency.
STOP AND THINK…if you aren’t too afraid that your imaginary friend is going to zap you with a lightning bolt. Study world mythologies, anthropology, social psychology and your eyes might be opened if your mind isn’t locked closed.
November 26th, 2006 at at 5:00 pm
Immanuel,
The old “He created us” canard? So, if I were to have kids, I could treat them the way god treats us, and it would be all right? Too bad, I would never treat my kids, or anyone really, the way god treats all of us.
Also, if Jesus is love, then why did he say that he came not for peace, but with a sword? You can pick and choose little snippets of the Bible and find the ones you like, but that doesn’t mean that is what your religion is about.
November 26th, 2006 at at 9:33 pm
…not much else to be said except that ZERO evidence has been found for the existence of your god.
Explain http://www.akiane.com(4 yr old girl has a visitation of the Lord in an atheistic home and is a child prodigy, read her poetry, her art is amazing) , st. malachy’s vision, george washington’s vision, joan of arc, or even rasputin. I’m sorry but psychosis is not it, there is more to this world than what we see with our natural eyes.
November 26th, 2006 at at 10:00 pm
The old “He created us” canard? So, if I were to have kids, I could treat them the way god treats us, and it would be all right? Too bad, I would never treat my kids, or anyone really, the way god treats all of us.
Also, if Jesus is love, then why did he say that he came not for peace, but with a sword?
How is god treating you?
The sword represents his Word. Our war is not with flesh and blood but with principalities, powers, and rulers in the heavenlies. Jesus told Pilate that he would have no power over him unless it was given to him from above. This is why I keep referencing a spiritual world that we cannot see with our natural eyes. There is a war raging in the heavenlies and we are caught in the middle of it. A war that involves an enemy that loves to remain a figment of our imagination. When light comes, what is in the dark will be exposed!!!
November 27th, 2006 at at 5:45 am
How is god treating you?
If the Bible is correct, then god is treating me rather badly.
I have been convicted of crimes I did not commit. From the moment of my birth, god deemed me a sinner and unworthy. God has condemned me to an eternity of damnation, hellfire, torment, etc. All of this is due to what some people did thousands of years ago that I had no part in, but god holds grudges and can’t seem to grasp the whole forgiveness thing. Oh, but you say that he does forgive, so long as we revel in the torture of his son. Well, sorry, but I am not going to revel in anyone’s torture, because I’m just not bloodthirsty enough to be a Xtian I guess. But, anyway, god is constantly emotionally and physically abusing us. He tests us through emotionally stressing situations and physical duress. Why all this testing? Because he needs us to prove over and over that we love him, even though he is abusive. In fact, that’s very much like many abusive relationships.
So, how is god treating me? If you are right and the Bible is correct, then quite badly.
November 27th, 2006 at at 10:18 am
4 yr old girl has a visitation of the Lord in an atheistic home and is a child prodigy,
Maybe she is possessed by demons
Seriously, Immanuel, if this story is true and it wasnt the parents’ doing, then someone else has been planting these ideas in this child’s mind. (Keep in mind also that children are not immune to schizophrenia or delusions.) There is an explanation that no one has investigated thoroughly enough, OR you are getting a story that has been made up and you believe it because you are a sucker for that kind of thing. Funny how only people who believe in this crap see it.
As for children having uncanny abilities for art, music and such, well…saying that some sky daddy gave these abilities to them is as absurd as saying “the devil made me do it”. Some children do exhibit certain talents for certain things at very early ages. However, they have been exposed to these things in one way or another to being with. Believing that a god is sitting up in some other realm picking and choosing who he is going to make a prodigy or a retard is ABSURD.
Like I said, Immanuel, you need to study sociology and psychology and find out how the human mind works. There is a whole lot of information on the psychology of child prodigies. Instead of hanging out trying to convert a few people on an atheist blog, look up different sources on the topic of child psychology and human psychology.
November 27th, 2006 at at 10:21 am
Immanuel, I looked further into the link you provided and indeed that child is a prodigy. However, I will reiterate that it does not mean that a magical being gave her that ability. Just because we cannot adequately explain this phenomena in children does not mean a god is involved.
November 27th, 2006 at at 5:21 pm
Immanuel, I was in a rush before so missed some things I had wanted to say in response to your claims of sky daddy giving this little girl special “gifts.”
The little girl in the example you provided has extraordinary talents. However, in the news recently a baby was born with its heart OUTSIDE its body and had to start its life out with a major operation. What about Siamese twins? What kind of joke is that? How about Cerebral Palsy, Downs Symdrome, Cystic Firbrosis, and kids who are born blind, deaf or dumb…or all three like Helen Keller? What about all the starving children in the world who won’t live to see adulthood? What about poor kids who are born into the ghettos of the world and will only herd cattle and farm their whole lives? Why would a god choose to give a few children gifts while “creating” others with deformities, learning disabilities and cancers and illnesses?
Of course, rational people do not believe that a god has anything to do with who is highly intelligent, has special talents and abilities at extraordinarily young ages, the same way we do not believe a sadistic sky monster is inflicting illness and deformities upon defenseless babies. These things just happen in nature. It is pure chance and not some magical guy in the sky attempting to entertain himself.
November 27th, 2006 at at 5:34 pm
And what about all of those poor native Americans who perished from diseases carried over by Europeans in the late 15th and early 16th centuries? The death toll is estimated to be in the tens of millions. And it wasn’t just the native societies that came into direct contact with the Spaniards. Infected tribes and chiefdoms passed it on to other tribes and chiefdoms that never even saw a Spaniard and so on and so on so that by the time Hernando de Soto travelled across what is today the southern United States, he found town after town recently abandoned because the inhabitants had succumbed to infections spread just a couple of decades earlier.
I understand the free will argument that Christians will make in response to the question why does God allow evil to happen. But in this case, the decimation of the Native Americans by diseases caught from the Spaniards was not even a deliberate act. If belief in Christ is necessary for salvation, then why did God allow tens of millions of people to die from diseases before they ever had a chance to hear the Good News? Such was the impact of the death toll that the Spaniards believed that God was deliberately favoring them by wiping out the heathens and for the shattered native societies, the observation that the Spaniards were immune to the sickness was clearly instrumental in getting those left alive to embrace Christianity because the Christian magic was stronger than their own.
It is forces such as this that allowed Christianity to gain such a strong foothold in Latin America. Disease wiped out tens of millions of pagans in order to make it easier to convert the 5 or 10% of the population that managed to survive.
November 27th, 2006 at at 5:49 pm
If Immanuel wants to assert that some child prodigy is evidence of god, then that would be the same mistake as Dollar made above in begging the question.
November 27th, 2006 at at 10:34 pm
OMGF and stardust, you both are essentially saying the same thing. God is responsible for everything, good or bad. IF there is a God then there has to be a utopia. There was a utopia but disobedience brought death. Man was given dominion over the earth but after the fall that right was relinquished and you know who, the figment of my imagination, stepped in. This goes back to the war in the heavenlies, Jesus could have called down all the heavenly host that day but he didn’t because he was there to pay the price for sin.
Everyone is so quick to say that xianist have all the answers. Well, I am here to tell you that I for one do not have all the answers. There will always be a mystery to God until we all stand before him. Then the mystery will be gone and the only thing left will be for us to face eternity.
How can you have such strong opinions about someone you don’t know or believe in?
November 27th, 2006 at at 10:59 pm
If Immanuel wants to assert that some child prodigy is evidence of god, then that would be the same mistake as Dollar made above in begging the question.
How am I begging the question? Go to her website and read what she says not me. She was in a family that WERE atheist. They are now Christian. As for child prodigy, I have heard that most prodigies paint in an abstract style while she is a realist. How do you explain the Jesus portraits? Read her poetry, she says ,not me, that when God gives her poetry a lot of times she will have to go look the words up because she has never heard them before or even know there meaning. Why wouldn’t this qualify as evidence? This is the work of the unseen God, remember, the Holy Spirit is like the wind, you don’t know where it comes from or where it is going but you only see its effects.
November 27th, 2006 at at 11:27 pm
What about Siamese twins? What kind of joke is that? How about Cerebral Palsy, Downs Symdrome, Cystic Firbrosis, and kids who are born blind, deaf or dumb…or all three like Helen Keller? What about all the starving children in the world who won’t live to see adulthood? What about poor kids who are born into the ghettos of the world and will only herd cattle and farm their whole lives? Why would a god choose to give a few children gifts while “creating” others with deformities, learning disabilities and cancers and illnesses?
I don’t know, ask Him, but it is sad to think that these questions are holding you back.
We lost my sted-dad to liver cancer in January this year, he was diagnosed on a Wed. and passed away ten days later. I don’t understand why but I haven’t blamed God for any of it. There is always going to be questions that we won’t know the answers to until we stand in eternity and then those answers won’t really matter.
November 28th, 2006 at at 6:03 am
OMGF and stardust, you both are essentially saying the same thing. God is responsible for everything, good or bad. IF there is a God then there has to be a utopia. There was a utopia but disobedience brought death. Man was given dominion over the earth but after the fall that right was relinquished and you know who, the figment of my imagination, stepped in. This goes back to the war in the heavenlies, Jesus could have called down all the heavenly host that day but he didn’t because he was there to pay the price for sin.
Everyone is so quick to say that xianist have all the answers. Well, I am here to tell you that I for one do not have all the answers. There will always be a mystery to God until we all stand before him. Then the mystery will be gone and the only thing left will be for us to face eternity.
How can you have such strong opinions about someone you don’t know or believe in?
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I was pointing out god’s treatment of us. You can’t say that god loves us when he treats us so shabbily. So, you believe Adam and Eve broke some rule and that justifies god torturing us for eternity while at the same time claiming that he loves us? When I love someone, I can’t ever comprehend threatening that person with any torture, let alone eternal torture.
Also, since you brought Adam and Eve into this, let’s examine that story just a little bit, shall we? You say Adam and Eve had paradise, but they disobeyed and were therefore cast out and sin entered the world, yada yada yada. But, what did they actually do? They did exactly what god knew they would do when he created them. God knew what would happen and let it happen. He even facilitated it by putting the fruit within their grasp. If he really didn’t want them to eat it, then he could have easily moved it out of their reach, but he didn’t. He must have wanted it to happen. So, why would he want to punish and cast out the creatures he supposedly loves?
But, it’s even worse than that, because the fruit that Adam and Eve ate was the fruit of knowledge, right? What did they gain from it; knowledge of right and wrong. So, god punished them for doing wrong, even though they couldn’t have possibly known it was wrong until after the action had taken place. God might have told them not to do it, but they had no concept of wrong, so they had no reason to think that disobeying god would be bad. It’s like a child. If you tell a child not to drop their food on the floor and they do drop it on the floor, would you cast that child out of your house? Of course not. You probably wouldn’t even punish the child, especially not if the child is young enough to not understand consequences. God’s actions in this story are simply sadistic. I’m not saying the world has to be perfect, because we can go off the Bible’s words about god’s actions and see that god does not act in a just or moral way.
Now, as for “strong opinions” it is because it affects my life. Xtians are trying to insert their religion into our schools and our government all the time. People like you are preaching to me quite often. Churches leave pamphlets on my door all the time. Xtianity is pervasive in our culture. I can’t pledge allegiance to my country without also pledging allegiance to your god. I can’t use money in this country that doesn’t use your god as it’s backing. Of course I’m going to have strong feelings about this, my rights are at stake here.
November 28th, 2006 at at 6:12 am
If Immanuel wants to assert that some child prodigy is evidence of god, then that would be the same mistake as Dollar made above in begging the question.
How am I begging the question? Go to her website and read what she says not me. She was in a family that WERE atheist. They are now Christian. As for child prodigy, I have heard that most prodigies paint in an abstract style while she is a realist. How do you explain the Jesus portraits? Read her poetry, she says ,not me, that when God gives her poetry a lot of times she will have to go look the words up because she has never heard them before or even know there meaning. Why wouldn’t this qualify as evidence? This is the work of the unseen God, remember, the Holy Spirit is like the wind, you don’t know where it comes from or where it is going but you only see its effects.
I suppose it might be this:
“If the universe had been created by a supernatural being, we would see order and organization everywhere. And we do see order, not randomness — so it’s clear that the universe had a creator.”
instead of begging the question. Take your pick.
Either way, you are assuming that god makes child prodigies. You see a child prodigy, therefore god. Either that, or you are performing a god of the gaps argument; we can’t explain x, therefore x must be god. Any way you slice it, it is not logical.
Oh, and you may want to check into her story a little more. There’s some question as to whether she is actually doing the work. Also, her mother was atheist, her father was not, and her mother became born again when she was very little. Plus, living in our society, it’s pretty easy to pick up religious memes.
But, for the sake of argument, let’s say that she is a prodigy. So what? Even if she says it comes from god, lots of people say that. Sports stars often claim that they got their gifts from god. Does that make it true? Of course not.
November 28th, 2006 at at 9:27 am
Immanuel, I’m still waiting for your response to my last post above. Why did God allow millions of native Americans to die from disease, thus denying them the chance to be saved?
November 28th, 2006 at at 3:13 pm
God is responsible for everything, good or bad. IF there is a God then there has to be a utopia. There was a utopia but disobedience brought death. Man was given dominion over the earth but after the fall that right was relinquished and you know who, the figment of my imagination, stepped in.
Immanuel, then you are saying that humans are all god’s puppets. If they don’t do what god wants, then he kills them. What you are saying is that your god set humans up for failure in the very beginning when there was absolutely no need to. He didn’t give them free will…but an option to do or die. That is not allowing someone to love you freely. When we have children of our own, we love them regardless of what they do, and the mistakes they make and would NEVER want to kill them or make them suffer for a moment, much less an eternity! This god could have had what he wanted by merely leaving well enough alone in the garden of utopia…but he introduces temptation and since he is omniscient and can see past and present, he KNOWS that his creations are going to take the bait and that he is going to have to be a dick. Sounds pretty evil to me. You may as well worship the dickish and twisted Greek and Roman gods.
There is NO GOD…and NO UTOPIA. We are here in this world…humans against nature. That’s it.
I lost a newborn baby in 1977 right after delivery. It was not a god’s fault, or anyone else’s fault but DOCTOR ERROR. My brother in law died at age 35 after suffering from ALS for five years, leaving a young wife and two small kids on their own. I don’t blame god or doctors for that. It is a disease he was unlucky enough to get. Illness happens, accidents happen, SHIT happens. And we all have to deal with it in our own way. If you need an imaginary friend, then so be it. It’s the trying to force me to believe in YOUR delusion that I find offensive.
OMGF wrote about the child prodigy:Oh, and you may want to check into her story a little more. There’s some question as to whether she is actually doing the work. Also, her mother was atheist, her father was not, and her mother became born again when she was very little. Plus, living in our society, it’s pretty easy to pick up religious memes.
I have been doing some further investigation myself, OMGF and have run across similar information. It is typical for xians who want to prove their point not to give full information when they become desperate to prove their point.
Immanuel…to echo Tommykey, why haven’t you answered his question “Why did God allow millions of native Americans to die from disease, thus denying them the chance to be saved?”
November 28th, 2006 at at 3:25 pm
OMGF said:Now, as for “strong opinions” it is because it affects my life. Xtians are trying to insert their religion into our schools and our government all the time. People like you are preaching to me quite often. Churches leave pamphlets on my door all the time. Xtianity is pervasive in our culture. I can’t pledge allegiance to my country without also pledging allegiance to your god. I can’t use money in this country that doesn’t use your god as it’s backing. Of course I’m going to have strong feelings about this, my rights are at stake here.
ditto
November 28th, 2006 at at 10:04 pm
Either way, you are assuming that god makes child prodigies. You see a child prodigy, therefore god. Either that, or you are performing a god of the gaps argument; we can’t explain x, therefore x must be god. Any way you slice it, it is not logical.
Oh, and you may want to check into her story a little more. There’s some question as to whether she is actually doing the work. Also, her mother was atheist, her father was not, and her mother became born again when she was very little. Plus, living in our society, it’s pretty easy to pick up religious memes.
I put Akiane before you as evidence of God. You are the ones that keep saying the burden is on me for proof. Obviously, unless God pops in on you, you will never believe anyone. stardust says that someone has been planting this stuff in her mind and you are leading into the conspiracy theory. I guess there is some secret xianist organization that is the mastermind behind Akiane’s life so that xianists can further deceive mankind, that’s ludicrous!!! stop doubting and believe…at least believe that there is something spiritual about the world that we live in whether you can explain it or not. I guess I am counfused about what you consider evidence.
November 28th, 2006 at at 10:53 pm
Immanuel, I’m still waiting for your response to my last post above. Why did God allow millions of native Americans to die from disease, thus denying them the chance to be saved?
TommyKey,
I am still baffled as to where this question came from but obviously this means a lot to you. Why is it always God’s fault? IF there is God, then where did Satan go? Who did what? To answer your question, I don’t know. The only thing I profess to know is that God is real and Jesus is Alive. I could share some of my experiences with you but at this point in the eyes of others I am a delusional, psychotic that hears voices and hallucinates. The problem is that neither you or anyone else wants to know if God is real. I have already made the offer, if you are up for it just let me know. Seek and you will find!!! Mocking will always be a dead end street.
November 28th, 2006 at at 10:58 pm
I put Akiane before you as evidence of God.
That is not evidence of god. That is you trying to explain something you don’t understand the easy way…”god did it”.
Immanuel, This child got the ideas via human intervention, somehow, someway. You, Immanuel can only see one possibility because you want your sky daddy beliefs to be true so desperately. If you study the psychology of child prodigies, you will find them from all cultures and backgrounds. Just because you don’t understand something isn’t evidence that a god is at work.
Why don’t you give up the imaginary friend and think rationally and consider and examine logical possibilities. Here is something for you to read for starters. Child prodigy
One cannot spontaneously have knowledge beam itself from the heavens into one’s head: at least some time, and therefore energy, is required to learn and absorb the proper skill set.
Immanuel wrote: “I guess there is some secret xianist organization that is the mastermind behind Akiane’s life so that xianists can further deceive mankind,”
Immanuel, I wouldn’t put it past them. Xians have been known to do some pretty far out things to try to make people believe their delusions. As OMGF has pointed out, questions have been raised whether this child is doing the work herself. The way xians lie and deceive, could be that her parents created this big scheme to get attention to make money. Or she could indeed be a prodigy. Has anyone other than the parents actually seen this child paint a picture or compose a poem with their own eyes?
Immanuel wrote:”guess I am counfused about what you consider evidence.”
Seeing xians being healed instead of going to the doctor would be a good one for starters. How about having a believer call on god to part Lake Michigan so I can walk across it. How about god dropping manna from heaven upon the starving of Darfur and stop the genocide going on there. How about this god showing himself to the world instead of hiding invisibly and silently in the clouds so everyone will stop fighting over who has the “true” god on their side? These things would be good for starters.
Do you go to the doctor Immanuel, or do you pray to your god to be healed? Can you heal people? If you are a believer you should be able to perform miracles. Of course, xians make excuses for not being able to do these things, but the atheist knows you cannot because gods do not exist.
Also, you still have not answered Tommykey’s question concerning Native Americans.
November 28th, 2006 at at 11:14 pm
Seek and you will find!!!
Then why do you answer “I don’t know” to everything if god talks to you and is your special friend? hmmmm
When I want to know something I can call a certain human expert and get the answers for you if I don’t know something. But seems your god has left you in the dark on so many things, Immanuel. Doesn’t that make you stop and think that maybe god is all in your own head?
November 29th, 2006 at at 5:31 am
I put Akiane before you as evidence of God.
Which isn’t evidence. I could just as easily claim it to be evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Santa Claus, Vishnu or Allah. It is only evidence for your god if you presuppose that your god did it.
And it is, since you are making the positive belief claim.
Or, maybe it’s more simple than that. Maybe her parents are taking people for a ride in order to gain money and fame? Maybe they are using Xtians and playing on their willingness to believe?
I also said that it doesn’t matter whether it’s a hoax or not. It’s still a logical fallacy to claim it as proof for god.
You would need to formulate a statement (hypothesis) that does not depend on using your suppositions as positive data. IOW, your data can’t rely on the assumption that god exists. Alternatively, you could try and show that something is impossible without intervention, but that is just as difficult as the former suggestion.
November 29th, 2006 at at 5:39 am
I am still baffled as to where this question came from but obviously this means a lot to you. Why is it always God’s fault?
How is it ever not god’s fault what happens? God set up the universe knowing full well what would happen. If he did not like what would happen, it would have been a simple matter for him to change it to suit his whims. Therefore, all things that happen are god’s fault, good or bad.
Objection. You are assuming that satan must exist. There is no reason why the universe must have a binary system. You simply wish to displace blame for evil onto another being so that you can keep your god blame-free, thus making it easier to worship him without having to see the ugly side of him.
Well, since you can’t explain it, then it must have been the Flying Spaghetti Monster (using your logic from above.)
I, and I bet all others here, would love to know if god is real. I strongly suspect that it god does not exist. Similarly, neither you nor I know if Allah is real, but we both strongly suspect he doesn’t.
Another typical Xtian response. You assume that everyone here has been an atheist for all their lives. That no one here has searched for god and not found. Well, if only you remembered the comments by stardust that you claim you read, you would remember that stardust has already addressed that. There are many others as well, who grew up in Xtian households and searched for god only to find that he isn’t real.
November 29th, 2006 at at 6:02 pm
I like your point about X-ians assuming that we are the ones in need of soul searching.
I had 13 years of Catholic School, Church every Sunday until I moved from home, my Dad would make us go on New Years Day because its a holy day for hardcore catholics.
If they knew how much time and effort, not just in research, and books, but in the shear number of hours that my brain has wrestled with god. They would be ashamed to call themselves contemplative. I used to laugh to myself that I would bet I spent more time thinking about god than a lot of priests do.
Recently, I haven’t been thinking about it as much. I think I’m finding my comfort zone with atheism. I broke the chains early, but it takes a long time to shake off that kind of concerted brainwashing, first to admit there is no god to yourself, then to think it out, then to accept it, then to stop being a pain in the ass about it, then to finally find your groove, it becomes who you are, and it doesn’t need to be rehashed endlessly in your mind. If you’re like me, every drive alone becomes a debate team battleground, it gets tiring but you just need to fight about it a few more times, just few more points to make against that straw man in your head.
You’ll get over it.
Believe me, you will be able to stop the arguements eventually.
I feel like there should be a bodhi tree behind me. Atheism is a great road to inner peace, a long road, but worth every minute. Keep fighting it out in your mind, purge yourself of every last smudge of religiousity, then, once you don’t need to fight about it anymore, you can spend your debate time with other things.
For me, it’s now building an Uber-tank for poison dart frogs. Neat little buggers.
November 29th, 2006 at at 6:34 pm
Immanuel, my question is important because again, we are constantly reminded by people such as yourself that acceptance of Jesus Christ as our lord and savior is necessary in order that we be “saved”.
When the Spanish began their invasion of the Americas, bringing with them in tow bible-toting padres to spread the word of God, tens of millions of Native Americans died from diseases transmitted to them by the Spaniards. To repeat, this was not a deliberate act on the part of the Spaniards, who for all of their greed and treachery, apparently were sincere in converting the natives to Christ. Why would God create a situation where the very transmitters of the Word that is necessary for salvation also be the transmitters of diseases that killed many of the natives before they ever got a chance to be taught about Jesus? Many of these natives were just a few years away from having the chance to hear the message.
To be honest, I don’t expect you to tell me why this happened. I just want you to think about the implications of your belief in a loving god who only wants us to hear the “truth” in order that we might be “saved”. If I AM does not mind me shamelessly pimping my own blog here, I plan to do a more in depth post about this subject in a day or two that I invite you to visit.
As for your belief that you have had three demonic possessions, all I can say to that is that about ten years ago I worked in the United States Federal Court here on Long Island. We had this notorious pro se plaintiff (for those who may not know, a pro se plaintiff is a person who represents him or herself in a court proceeding, leading someone to coin the phrase “a person who has himself for an attorney has a fool for a client”) named Norman Rabin who was suing various agencies of the United States government. Mr. Rabin’s claim was that the government was using satellites to beam signals into his brain in order to control his behavior. I know that he sincerely believed this, because once when I was manning the counter and was interacting with him, I asked him a question that inadvertently caused him offense and he started saying to me “Why did you ask me that question?” as if I was somehow in on the conspiracy against him. I don’t remember what the question was. After a couple of minutes I was able to calm him down and that was the end of the incident. If you are curious about Mr. Rabin, feel free to Google search Norman Rabin. I believe there will be at least several hits that mention or reference him.
Now my question to you is, based on your life’s knowledge and experience, do you believe that the government is using satellites to control Norman Rabin’s brain? If the answer is no, then why? What proof do you require to believe Mr. Rabin’s claims? A chip found in his brain? A leaked internal memo from the CIA? A government whistleblower’s testimony? That is probably what it would take for me to believe Rabin’s story. Absent such evidence, I can only conclude that Rabin suffers from some kind of mental disorder that causes him to have a persecution complex. I must view claims from people that they have been possessed by demons or visited by space aliens with the same skepticism absent convincing evidence to the contrary.
And yes, as you astutely observe, I am something of a history buff. I tend to address religious claims from a historical perspective because that is where the strength of my knowledge lies. If you want to read the atheist or secular point of view from someone trained in biology, read PZ Myer’s blog Pharyngula. While I accept evolution over creationism, I lack the in depth knowledge of the various fields of scientific knowledge to argue from a scientific perspective.
November 30th, 2006 at at 12:05 am
Another typical Xtian response. You assume that everyone here has been an atheist for all their lives. That no one here has searched for god and not found. Well, if only you remembered the comments by stardust that you claim you read, you would remember that stardust has already addressed that. There are many others as well, who grew up in Xtian households and searched for god only to find that he isn’t real.
I read, I remember the comment, stardust was in the church for some 30 years, sunday school teacher, and all of the above. I haven’t assumed that any of you have never been exposed to or grew up in a christian environment. None of you ever experienced anything but sitting on a pew listening to the priest/preacher or sang amazing grace for the tenth time in a month. Being a christian is about living in the spirit, flowing in the Holy Spirit, operating with the anointing that breaks the yoke and cuts the chords. The kingdom of Heaven is not a matter of talk but of power. Where any of you ever in a service when a prophet(someone that has never been to this church before) was there and starts calling people out of the congregation by name and prophesying over them about their family, job, or future? At the church that I attend, we have had many supernatural things happen and just within the last year, a woman at our church was healed of lupus and a guy still in high school was healed of a brain tumor. As I have said more than once, go beyond belief and experience Him for yourself. As Heidi Baker says most christians are content in waiting to go eat pie in the sky that is all their faith is good for but we can experience Him and know Him for ourselves, we don’t have to wait for heaven. We can experience Him now, today!!!
November 30th, 2006 at at 12:11 am
Seek and you will find!!!
Then why do you answer “I don’t know” to everything if god talks to you and is your special friend? hmmmm
When I want to know something I can call a certain human expert and get the answers for you if I don’t know something. But seems your god has left you in the dark on so many things, Immanuel. Doesn’t that make you stop and think that maybe god is all in your own head?
No, I don’t need to know everything. When it comes to God, I know everything that I need to know.
November 30th, 2006 at at 12:20 am
No, I don’t need to know everything. When it comes to God, I know everything that I need to know.
Meaning God is real and Jesus is alive and well!!!
November 30th, 2006 at at 12:33 am
At the church that I attend, we have had many supernatural things happen and just within the last year
Ever wonder why these things only happen INSIDE some churches amongst a small number of your believing peers? Why don’t people “get the spirit” and drop down on the floor and start speaking in tongues in the middle of Kmart or Hobby Lobby or at the mall? Why don’t you get the spirit while at work or at a baseball game or sporting event? You get all psyched up in your mind and behave inside your church the way you think you should behave if this so-called spirit were to grab you, and the members of the group get all emotional and copy what the other one is doing. Group hysteria, or desire for attention.
when a prophet(was there and starts calling people out of the congregation by name and prophesying over them about their family, job, or future
(Isn’t there something in the bible against fortune telling?)…anyway…Next thing you know, you will be telling us that Benny Hinn is not a fraud. The evangelists/prophets/whatever had to have found out somehow, some way about members of the congregation BEFORE going there. We do have these things in the modern world called telephones and internet and information like they are claiming to have acquired via divine telepathy can be Googled in a few minutes time. If you believe it is magic, then next thing you know you will be buying non-existent real estate in the swampy part of Florida. “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
The woman with lupus probably was most likely misdiagnosed in the first place like a friend of mine was. My friend believed she had lupus for five years, then amazingly it disappeared with no oogie boogie intervention or magic words. When she went back to her doctor, he said that they had made an error in diagnosis, or there was a false positive on the test results…lupus just doesn’t disappear. If you use your brain, and investigate, you will find logical reasons for why things happen. Simply saying “god did it” is a lazy person’s reasoning.
November 30th, 2006 at at 12:45 am
God is real and Jesus is alive and well!!! I know everything that I need to know.
This discussion is going nowhere but in circles. I am getting dizzy.
November 30th, 2006 at at 1:33 am
Immanuel, my question is important because again, we are constantly reminded by people such as yourself that acceptance of Jesus Christ as our lord and savior is necessary in order that we be “saved”.
Now my question to you is, based on your life’s knowledge and experience, do you believe that the government is using satellites to control Norman Rabin’s brain? If the answer is no, then why? What proof do you require to believe Mr. Rabin’s claims? A chip found in his brain? A leaked internal memo from the CIA? A government whistleblower’s testimony? That is probably what it would take for me to believe Rabin’s story. Absent such evidence, I can only conclude that Rabin suffers from some kind of mental disorder that causes him to have a persecution complex. I must view claims from people that they have been possessed by demons or visited by space aliens with the same skepticism absent convincing evidence to the contrary.
TommyKey, I agree with you that a mental disorder is evident. Here lies the problem, I believe in a spiritual world that your atheistic views deny. I have not made any blanket statements about every incidence being spiritual, there is definetly scientific explanations for many things but I have heard the human experts that stardust refers to say , “I don’t know.”
Since you are the History professor, what about Joan of Arc? I have read a lot of material off the web, have started reading Regine Pernoud’s book, “Joan of Arc: By Herself and Her Witnesses”, and Mark Twain’s novel, ‘Joan of Arc’ which was a great story. Mark Twain spent some 12 years researching her life before he attempted to write the book. He follows the dates and events of her life accurately, but obviously has to develop the characters of the story. For me, she is an example of God choosing the foolish things of this world to shame the wise and choosing the weak things to confound the strong.
And another topic of interest is George Washinton’s vision published in the The National Tribune, in December 1880. In his vision, he was shown three different significant wars that the US will face in her history. One being the Civil War, the second appears to be WWII and the last which has not taken place yet will be the war of wars. Yes, I understand people say it was a hoax, but how do you explain the wars being talked about years before their time?
November 30th, 2006 at at 2:03 am
Ever wonder why these things only happen INSIDE some churches amongst a small number of your believing peers?
stardust, 400-500 people is not a small number of my peers…
My cousin knows someone who had church on aisle 9 in the grocery store. So, yes, it happens and in the months and years ahead will become more frequent that should make all of you very excited. I hope all of you have an encounter with someone that is anointed to break the yoke and cut the chords because that is what you need to break free from the unbelief. God can show up in an instant. His kingdom is not a matter of talk but of power. We all need to have that power encounter. My prayer is that you all will encounter Him.
The prophet was from Gwana, South Africa, and it was his first time to the city and church. As I have stated over and over stardust, you have never experienced anything, so I can understand your unbelief and doubts. Yes, we xianist really go out of our way to deceive the masses just like we brainwash 4 yr olds to believe in God and then paint pictures of him.
November 30th, 2006 at at 5:18 am
None of you ever experienced anything but sitting on a pew listening to the priest/preacher or sang amazing grace for the tenth time in a month.
And once again you simply repeat the same tired, old stuff. It’s insulting for you to say that you know all of our experiences better than we do. Who are you to speak to my experiences or anyone else’s here? The only thing you know about any of us is the online name we go by on this blog and what we have written. Speaking specifically for me, I have not divulged my past, so you have no idea what I have or have not done regarding anything, let alone religion. You might want to stop right there before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
More god of the gaps reasoning. Did you know that when the lightning rod was invented that church leaders rejected its use for religious reasons? They thought god controlled the weather and would not burn down churches and that this lightning rod was the devil’s tool. They changed their minds after many churches were struck by lightning and burned down, but buildings that had lightning rods and were struck by lightning survived. Now, we don’t attribute weather to god, except when crackpots like Pat Robertson say such and such hurricane hit New Orleans as god’s way of punishing us for gays. What you are doing here is classic god of the gaps. You look for any gap that you think is unexplained and insert your god into it.
November 30th, 2006 at at 5:29 am
The prophet was from Gwana, South Africa, and it was his first time to the city and church. As I have stated over and over stardust, you have never experienced anything, so I can understand your unbelief and doubts. Yes, we xianist really go out of our way to deceive the masses just like we brainwash 4 yr olds to believe in God and then paint pictures of him.
Prophecy is a tool of the devil, didn’t you know? How do you know that this guy wasn’t sent by Satan to lead you into idolatry or apostasy?
How do you know that Loki wasn’t just messing with you? Loki could have spoken to this man and given him all this information while posing as god.
Or, maybe he could be using the techniques that all fortune tellers use. There are a variety of tricks they use. They make probabilistic statements (statements that have a high probability of being true, but seem weird), they use audience cues (most people give the game away because they want so much to believe this person has psychic powers), and they also data mine through online sources (as stardust said) and through feelers they put in the audience ahead of time to mine data. The last trick they use and the most insidious is fake audience members, and can you be sure that in an audience of 500 people this was not the case?
Lastly, stop with the conspiracy stuff. You are equivocating in order to make the argument seem absurd and easily dismissed. No one is saying that there is some cabal of Xtians that goes around brainwashing little kids to further some agenda. What I will say is that there are some well intentioned people that are being led astray by other well intentioned people that were previously led astray themselves. There are also hucksters that take advantage of you and your beliefs. In the case of Akiane, if it is a hoax, then Xtians are the victims, not the conspirators. If that is a hoax, the parents of that child are taking you and all other Xtians for a ride to take money from you. People like Oral Roberts are just like that. They are taking advantage of your faith for their own personal gain.
November 30th, 2006 at at 9:29 am
For me, she is an example of God choosing the foolish things of this world to shame the wise and choosing the weak things to confound the strong.
Why would a god have to dick around and play games with people? Why not just be up front and clear? That works best. I have managed whole art departments and if I tried to shame and confound to get workers to be productive and do what they are supposed to do, I would have no employees left. However, being clear and to the point works best with humans. If you read world mythologies, you will see that the gods are always playing some sort of bizarre game with people and each other. It is because humans are trying to attribute every detail that happens in life to some magical being. Many humans are still primitive in their thinking and are too lazy or have been taught to fear punishment from a great sky daddy for merely considering that it may not be true.
stardust, 400-500 people is not a small number of my peers…
I don’t care if it is a Billy Graham crusade of thousands. You are all there wanting to believe the same exact thing. Just like putting 50,000 sports fans into a stadium for a sporting event…everyone behaves in pretty much the same way..cheering, drinking beer, eating hotdogs, etc. Put a few hundred or a few thousand in a concert hall for a Metallica concert and everyone will shake their fists in the air and have a headbanging good time. Put people who want to hear a comedian and they will all gather expecting to laugh and whoop it up. Put people in a hall to hear an Enya concert and they will all be peacefully swaying and holding candles in the air and meditating or something. It’s all ENVIRONMENT and who you are around. Group influence, and what you are expecting. In your “six flags over jeebus” church, everyone is expecting to “feel the spirit”…yet this does not happen outside of your church. It’s contained to where “birds of a feather flock together.”
My cousin knows someone who had church on aisle 9 in the grocery store. So, yes, it happens and in the months and years ahead will become more frequent that should make all of you very excited.
Actually, it doesn’t make me excited at all. It will mean that our mental institutions will become overflowing with nutjobs. I have been hearing people making the cliam that “in the months and years” these things will become more frequent…jeebus is coming again. My parents heard it, my granparents…and it has been said for nearly 2,000 years. If you read the bible carefully, the disciples were expecting Jeebus back “SOON’ and he has been a no show for all this time.
The prophet was from Gwana, South Africa,
Telephones are global devices now, and especially so is the internet. I have penfriends all over the planet…including one in Uganda. They do have postal services, DHL and other international communications, as well.
As I have stated over and over stardust, you have never experienced anything,
And this is the kind of comment that pisses ex-xians off. You don’t even know me. I was “saved” in a Baptist church my parents went to for a couple of years. I really believed I felt something. I went around giving testimony to that as adamently as you are. I believed everything the pastor said. I was re-baptized via dunking even though I was Baptised as a baby because I believed that first baptism wasn’t good enough…because that is what the pastor told me. We left that church when my parents finally saw the light and saw that that church just wanted to control every aspect of our lives, going so far as coming into our home and telling my father that he was sinning because he was having a can of beer. He threw them out, and we went back to the Lutheran church. Jumping ahead, my husband and I were Presbyterians for many years. He was an Elder. He went door to door inviting people to church (yes, Presbyterians and Lutherans do it too) But as our kids entered their teens, and after I went back to college and studied world religions, mythology, athropology, psychology, sociology, Bible as Literature in a social context, (side by side with the Greek bible, Jewish Bible and various other translations of the xian bible, I began to see the inconsistencies and the realities of what was contained in these holy texts. They are filled with a jumble of just about everything including violence, pornography, incest and a host of other things one would never want their kids exposed to if it were in a movie theater or literature, etc. Yet, because people beliive god wrote it..it’s ok to buy one for a six-year-old.
As time went by, we decided to allow our kids to make their own decisions about religion and we as a family grew in knowledge and began to see the light of reason more and more each day, though we continued to go to church. The turning point was when we were reciting the confessional prayer of the week, my daughter wasn’t saying the words. My husband asked her why and she said “because it says I am bad and I am NOT bad.” How could anyone tell a child YES, you ARE bad because god made you bad and he murdered his son just for you because you are born bad”…it was then that it really clicked that these were BIZARRE AND HORRIBLE beliefs. Humans are NOT bad, I am a good person, I am a helpful, kind, loyal person. I feel bad when I kill a housefly. If this xian god was real, and came to me, I wouldn’t want a thing to do with such an awful, game-playing, sadistic bastard. If you want to believe in this evil creepy god, go ahead Immanuel, but I am not jumping back on the mythology is real bandwagon.
November 30th, 2006 at at 10:05 am
I think my last comment is stuck in moderation.
November 30th, 2006 at at 12:53 pm
Then there’s the story of Croesus as told to us by Herodotus. Croesus was the ruler of Lydia, a kingdom in Western Asia Minor that apparently was the first to mint coins. Now Croesus was concerned about the growing power of the Persians under their ruler Cyrus and he resolved to go to war with them. Like any dutiful ruler of the age, he consulted the oracle at Delphi, who told him that if he went to war against the Persians he would destroy a mighty kingdom. Taking this as a prophecy that he would destroy the Persians, Croesus marched off to war. Things did not go as planned and it was Cyrus who ended up conquering Lydia. In a sense the oracle’s prophecy was true, only the kingdom Croesus ended up destroying was his own.
November 30th, 2006 at at 2:30 pm
It seems my previous comment disappeared so I will try posting it again in sections…
For me, she is an example of God choosing the foolish things of this world to shame the wise and choosing the weak things to confound the strong.
Immanuel - Why would a god have to dick around and play games with people? Why not just be up front and clear? That works best. I have managed whole art departments and if I tried to shame and confound to get workers to be productive and do what they are supposed to do, I would have no employees left. However, being clear and to the point works best with humans. If you read world mythologies, you will see that the gods are always playing some sort of bizarre game with people and each other. It is because humans are trying to attribute every detail that happens in life to some magical being. Many humans are still primitive in their thinking and are too lazy or have been taught to fear punishment from a great sky daddy for merely considering that it may not be true.
stardust, 400-500 people is not a small number of my peers…
I don’t care if it is a Billy Graham crusade of thousands. You are all there wanting to believe the same exact thing. Just like putting 50,000 sports fans into a stadium for a sporting event…everyone behaves in pretty much the same way..cheering, drinking beer, eating hotdogs, etc. Put a few hundred or a few thousand in a concert hall for a Metallica concert and everyone will shake their fists in the air and have a headbanging good time. Put people who want to hear a comedian and they will all gather expecting to laugh and whoop it up. Put people in a hall to hear an Enya concert and they will all be peacefully swaying and holding candles in the air and meditating or something. It’s all ENVIRONMENT and who you are around. Group influence, and what you are expecting. In your “six flags over jeebus” church, everyone is expecting to “feel the spirit”…yet this does not happen outside of your church. It’s contained to where “birds of a feather flock together.”
November 30th, 2006 at at 2:32 pm
My cousin knows someone who had church on aisle 9 in the grocery store. So, yes, it happens and in the months and years ahead will become more frequent that should make all of you very excited.
Actually, it doesn’t make me excited at all. The thought of that is disturbing, however. It will mean that our mental institutions will become overflowing with nutjobs. I have been hearing people making the claim that “in the months and years” these things will become more frequent…jeebus is coming again. My parents heard it, my granparents…and it has been said for nearly 2,000 years. If you read the bible carefully, the disciples were expecting Jeebus back “SOON’ and he has been a no show for all this time.
The prophet was from Gwana, South Africa
Telephones are global devices now, and especially so is the internet. I have penfriends all over the planet…including one in Uganda. They do have postal services, DHL and other international communications, as well.
As I have stated over and over stardust, you have never experienced anything,
And this is the kind of comment that ticks ex-xians off. You don’t even know me. I was “saved” in a Baptist church my parents went to for a couple of years. I really believed I felt something. I went around giving testimony to that as adamently as you are. I believed everything the pastor said. I was re-baptized via dunking even though I was Baptised as a baby because I believed that first baptism wasn’t good enough…because that is what the pastor told me. We left that church when my parents finally saw the light and saw that that church just wanted to control every aspect of our lives, going so far as coming into our home and telling my father that he was sinning because he was having a can of beer. He threw them out, and we went back to the Lutheran church. Jumping ahead, my husband and I were Presbyterians for many years. He was an Elder. He went door to door inviting people to church (yes, Presbyterians and Lutherans do it too) But as our kids entered their teens, and after I went back to college and studied world religions, mythology, athropology, psychology, sociology, Bible as Literature in a social context, (side by side with the Greek bible, Jewish Bible and various other translations of the xian bible, I began to see the inconsistencies and the realities of what was contained in these holy texts. They are filled with a jumble of just about everything one would never want their kids exposed to if it were in a movie theater or literature, etc. Yet, because people believe god wrote it..it’s ok to buy one for a six-year-old.
As time went by, we decided to allow our kids to make their own decisions about religion and we as a family grew in knowledge and began to see the light of reason more and more each day, though we continued to go to church. The turning point was when we were reciting the confessional prayer of the week, my daughter wasn’t saying the words. My husband asked her why and she said “because it says I am bad and I am NOT bad.” How could anyone tell a child YES, you ARE bad because god made you bad and he murdered his son just for you because you are born bad”…it was then that it really clicked that these were BIZARRE AND HORRIBLE beliefs. Humans are NOT bad, I am a good person, I am a helpful, kind, loyal person. I feel bad when I kill a housefly. If this xian god was real, and came to me, I wouldn’t want a thing to do with such an awful, game-playing, sadistic bastard. If you want to believe in this evil creepy god, go ahead Immanuel, but I am not jumping back on the mythology is real bandwagon.
November 30th, 2006 at at 3:19 pm
I work in the entertainment industry. I design shows mostly for corporate events, but also occasionally for more traditional entertainment events such as concerts or theater. I had the opportunity to work with a person who had been the technical director for David Copperfield. While working together, I remembered a TV special where Copperfield made a Lear Jet disappear. When I saw the show, I was impressed and really wanted to know how they had done it.
The scene was impressive; a Lear Jet sat on a deserted tarmac, surrounded by an impressive array of lights and scaffolding. The scaffolding had white fabric on it, and when the scene starts the front side of the structure is open so the plane is visible to the audience. For the trick 50 “volunteers from the audience” make a human chain around the plane inside the perimeter of the drape. They are blindfolded and instructed to hold hands until the trick is complete. The last piece of drape goes up. The lights change to show a silhouette of the plane. Copperfield waves his hands doing some kind of business to show that the perimeter is secure. Then the lights go off, the front drape is dropped, the lights come back on, and the plane is gone. Amazing! well sort of. Watch it for yourself at: http://www.terryevanswood.com/lear-jet-vanish-video-david-copperfield/ The plane trick starts at about 39 mins in.
The fifty people that surround the plane are supposed to be the lynch pin to making this an amazing trick. How could he get the plane out of there, with 50 “volunteers” surrounding it, without them knowing? The answer I got is the obvious one. Some of the people weren’t uninterested bystanders. They were paid to drop their hands while the plane was pulled away on a very long cable connected to a high speed wench. They were in on it. A very small group of the “volunteers” intentionally deceived the others in order to pull off the trick.
That’s what is happening with your demon possessions. A small group leads the way by deceiving the rest, and the followers want to believe so badly that they never question what might really be going on. I would guess that most of the people that are in on it, think they are doing “Gods Work”, and that makes it OK. Some of them might even believe it’s real, but they’re the ones that are creating the demons, not God, the Devil, or any other “super natural” entity.
Why would they do this? You really aught to read The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan. He answers this much better than I can.
November 30th, 2006 at at 3:40 pm
Stardust, it was probably the “d” word that got your comments stuck in moderation.
November 30th, 2006 at at 3:55 pm
Stardust, it was probably the “d” word that got your comments stuck in moderation.
I’m pretty sure you’re right. I generally don’t look at the comments to figure out why they got stuck if they are from someone I recognize. Limiting “foul language” is not really a priority, just filtering out the porn spam. It’s staggering to me how much porn spam this site filters out on a daily bases.
November 30th, 2006 at at 4:04 pm
We have the same problem at GifS with the filter…we often have regular commentors get stuck in moderation with WordPress. I guess I will have to be careful with my language
November 30th, 2006 at at 10:45 pm
As time went by, we decided to allow our kids to make their own decisions about religion and we as a family grew in knowledge and began to see the light of reason more and more each day, though we continued to go to church. The turning point was when we were reciting the confessional prayer of the week, my daughter wasn’t saying the words. My husband asked her why and she said “because it says I am bad and I am NOT bad.” How could anyone tell a child YES, you ARE bad because god made you bad and he murdered his son just for you because you are born bad”…it was then that it really clicked that these were BIZARRE AND HORRIBLE beliefs. Humans are NOT bad, I am a good person, I am a helpful, kind, loyal person. I feel bad when I kill a housefly. If this xian god was real, and came to me, I wouldn’t want a thing to do with such an awful, game-playing, sadistic bastard. If you want to believe in this evil creepy god, go ahead Immanuel, but I am not jumping back on the mythology is real bandwagon.
This is exactly why religion kills. People sitting in church being led in prayers that are meaningless. Your daughter was innocent in that moment but at some point in her life she became aware of right and wrong. Only then could she make a conscious decision about wrong doing and not by some man standing in the pulpit leading a group prayer. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin not man. Religion is nothing but rules created by man which God never had in mind for us. We are bound by two laws to Love God and Love our neighbors anything after that becomes religious in nature and leads us away from God. This whole God thing is about a personal relationship with Him, daily walking with Him, constantly being in communion with Him not just on Sunday under the orchestration of a man. People can be just as lost in the church as they are out of it. Its better to be outside knowing that this in not real than inside blinded to the Truth of what this is all about. I’m glad you left because there is still hope for you and everyone else here. I understand that neither you or anyone here believes what I am saying. I have only been asked to share the Truth. God will prove Himself. He is Faithful!!!
November 30th, 2006 at at 11:25 pm
OMGF, all I am saying is that you and many people have only experienced religion. Religion will never reveal God. If you or anyone else would have had a genuine encounter with the Lord we would not be having this conversation. I am praying for you and everyone here that God will reveal Himself to each and everyone of you. The ‘gap’ idea is me standing in the gap for you and everyone else here, asking God to do what only He can do!!!
November 30th, 2006 at at 11:30 pm
Immanuel,
I no longer have a need for god beliefs. Since leaving religion behind, I have found peace.
MarkTwain wrote: “Peace of mind is a most valuable thing. The Bible has robbed the majority of the world of it during many centuries; it is but fair that in return it should give some to an individual here & there. But you must not make the mistake of supposing that absolute peace of mind is obtainable only through some form of religious belief: no, on the contrary I have found that as perfect a peace is to be found in absolute unbelief.”
This is exactly where I am.
December 1st, 2006 at at 6:52 am
Well Immanuel, you have fun with that. I will bow out now, since I have to go house hunting for the next 5 days and will be away from computer contact, and because all you seem to want to do now is belittle others’ experiences and proselytize. And, yes, you are belittling all of our experiences. You contend that religion is bad, going and sitting in church is bad…but not when you do it of course. You also contend that you know what all of our experiences were, even though you’ve never met any of us.
December 1st, 2006 at at 9:46 pm
OMGF, I see religion in my church. Your understanding and mine are not the same when it comes to religion. Anyways, happy hunting. Hope you and everyone else has a great holiday season.
December 1st, 2006 at at 9:54 pm
stardust, its amazing what can happen in a day. Hope you and your family have a great holiday season together.
December 1st, 2006 at at 10:51 pm
Immanuel…same to you.
December 1st, 2006 at at 10:55 pm
its amazing what can happen in a day.
Yes Immanuel…you could wake up and see the light of reason.
December 2nd, 2006 at at 8:56 am
Come back to lawd Stardust!
December 2nd, 2006 at at 11:06 am
Tommykey - I think I will keep “worshipping the stars and iron” like that someone on your blog says I do.
December 8th, 2006 at at 9:38 pm
As I mentioned on “Kill the Afterlife,” UK Christians have reason to fear because Elton John is next in line to be Queen.
December 30th, 2006 at at 10:49 am
Imagine the indignation if a religious leader suggested that we need to “ban homosexuality completely”
> You think it’s ok to ban religion?
Just wondering…how many fundamentalist Christian preachers do you think would, if handed a (non-evil-tainted) magic wand, say to themselves “Hey, this is just a really fast, effective tool for evangelizing and bringing people to Jesus.”? I don’t expect many would concern themselves with “a man’s right to choose his own belief system”.
No one following the teachings of Jesus Christ would wave such a wand. Of all the people in the world, He really could have waved a magic wand (His omnipotent power as God the Son) and changed the minds of the religious leaders that opposed Him. But He did not. In order for God to create a creature that could truly love Him, He had to give us the ability to make choices and think rationally. He will not override your will to choose - even if you choose to hate Hime.
To me, that’s a pretty gutsy move… maybe you should give God a little more credit that what I’ve seen in this blog so far.