Gay Ban Debates, Medved vs. John
I’ve always liked Elton John. Not just his music, which I do enjoy, but I appreciate his work as a philanthropist and liberal activist. He’s particularly active here in Las Vegas with the Andre Agassi Foundation, and I have a couple of friends that work on his show at Caesar’s Palace. Somehow, I hadn’t realized that he’s also an atheist, even better.
He made some comments in an interview recently that I imagine most of the readers of this site can appreciate; “From my point of view I would ban religion completely, […] organized religion doesn’t seem to work. It turns people into hateful lemmings and it’s not really compassionate.” I couldn’t agree more.
I’ve never really liked Michael Medved, and now he’s given me yet another reason. Here’s an excerpt from his reaction to Sir Elton’s comments.
Despite that “hatred and spite,” religious leaders actually express more tolerance to homosexuality (and non-believers) than Sir Elton expresses toward organized faith. Imagine the indignation if a religious leader suggested that we need to “ban homosexuality completely” — or urged an outright prohibition on atheism? It’s true that many believing Christians want to persuade gays to overcome their same-sex urges, or try to get non-believers to replace their doubt with faith, but no factions in the varied array of conservative religious groups has called for “banning” ideas with which they disagree.
Is he serious? He’s either supremely naive, utterly stupid, or intentionally deceitful. Just in case he reads this site (it could happen), and assuming that he’s just ignorant of the actual “hatred and spite” of many religious leaders, I thought I’d help him out by posting just a few headlines about gay bans from the past couple of years. Three things about this list are worth noting; I didn’t include any references to gay marriage (too easy), it’s in no way comprehensive there’s much more out there, and this short list makes it apparent that the only thing preventing actual bans on gays are the courts.
Drives to ban gay adoption heat up in 16 states
Alabama Bill Targets Gay Authors
Texas May Ban Gay Foster Parents
Vatican to Israel: Ban gay parade
Utah lawmaker seeks to ban gay-straight clubs
Behind the Vatican’s Proposed Gay Seminarian Ban
CBS, NBC ban church ad inviting gays
County Rescinds Vote to Ban Gay Residents
Tennessee County Wants to Ban Gays
Drives to Ban Gay Adoption Heat Up in 16 States
Hong Kong court upholds rejection of gay sex ban
Gay pride challenges Moscow
BYU Student Poll: Ban Gay Students
State Baptists to meet, may ban churches that back gays
Homosexual Group Slams Bishops for New Stance on Gays
and of course we can’t forget…
The last headline above actually speaks better of the “tolerance” Medved claims is common amongst religious leaders. However, I think the Catholic Church, in releasing a more tolerant position on gays, is really just covering their ass because they’ve finally realized just how many of their clergy are already in fact “celibate” homosexuals.
Medved also drops this little gem towards the end of his rant.
“In the bitter debate about teaching our children about the origins of life on earth, religious activists make no attempt to block the teaching of Darwinism or random natural selection, but it’s pro-evolution fanatics who fanatically resist any messages or questions that even hint at Intelligent Design.“
Maybe it is intentional?
LBBP
November 16th, 2006 at at 2:25 pm
LBBP,
Great post. Medved’s been my favorite conservative parrot and a bug up my rational ass for years. When you need someone to heap righteous indignation upon a deluded, secular, Darwinist culture, Medved can heap like no other. And what’s this “religious activists make no attempt to block the teaching of Darwinism” crap? This guy writes for several newspapers and apparently doesn’t even read them. And I suppose anyone with a fairly solid grasp of biology and the scientific method is “a pro-evolution fanatic.”
November 16th, 2006 at at 2:39 pm
I’d go with “intentionally deceitfully.” No question.
Great collection of links. I clicked through to the “Alabama Bill Targets Gay Authors” one, since I couldn’t recall hearing about the story, and apparently the ban wasn’t just on “gay” books in public schools - which you’d expect - but IN THE PUBLIC AND COLLEGE LIBRARIES AS WELL (!). The newest version of the bill just applies to school libraries, but still. Thank the FSM for free speech-lovin’ librarians!
November 16th, 2006 at at 6:34 pm
The man is deluded.
Imagine the indignation if a religious leader suggested that we need to “ban homosexuality completely”
Haven’t we seen the indignation? Hasn’t this happened? I just can’t stand when people make blanket statements like this. Perhaps the majority of the religious leaders have kept their mouths shut, but what about some of the more prominent ones? Pat Robertson comes to mind.
November 16th, 2006 at at 7:25 pm
Medved is clearly living, along with many of his ilk, in a parallel universe. The problem is that they keep intruding into ours.
November 16th, 2006 at at 7:43 pm
Let us not forget that gay men in Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and other places have actually been sentenced to death for the “crime” of their homosexuality. Not just gay-bashed or attacked by angry mobs, but sentenced by a “civil” authority. They don’t just want to ban homosexuality, they want to exterminate it.
November 17th, 2006 at at 12:59 am
You think it’s ok to ban religion? You want to take away a man’s right to choose his own belief system? That’s ridiculous.
It’s true there are kooks who try to ban gayness, but that doesn’t mean we should outlaw kookiness.
I wonder why ~I Am~ still lets you post here, LBBP. Not only are you terrible at knowing when to use apostrophes, you support laws to control people’s thoughts. Disgusting.
November 17th, 2006 at at 8:49 am
> You think it’s ok to ban religion?
(I am not Elton John. Any attempt to clarify his remarks is a half-assed guess on my part.)
I don’t think that Elton John meant that he would support a law with penalties for holding religious beliefs or participating in religious practices. I think this was a “If I had a magic wand…” kind of statement.
Does that mean that it would be alright for Elton John to use a magic wand to “take away a man’s right to choose his own belief system”? The kneejerk answer is no, but what if we were talking about racism. Would it be morally acceptable to use a magic wand to erase racism from the world? You would still be using it to “take away a man’s right to choose his own belief system”.
Just wondering…how many fundamentalist Christian preachers do you think would, if handed a (non-evil-tainted) magic wand, say to themselves “Hey, this is just a really fast, effective tool for evangelizing and bringing people to Jesus.”? I don’t expect many would concern themselves with “a man’s right to choose his own belief system”.
November 17th, 2006 at at 9:55 am
> You think it’s ok to ban religion?
(I am not Elton John. Any attempt to clarify his remarks is a half-assed guess on my part.)
I don’t think that Elton John meant that he would support a law with penalties for holding religious beliefs or participating in religious practices. I think this was a “If I had a magic wand…” kind of statement.
I think you’re right. For myself, a ban on religion would mean that the rest of humanity finally came to their senses and abandoned it voluntarily. That wouldn’t even necessarily mean that humanity had given up on spirituality, just realized that the ultimate answers to life, the universe, and everything are not to be found in the Bible, the Qur’an, or any other religious text.
November 17th, 2006 at at 4:32 pm
Wow, this Medved guy really has balls to be saying things like that.
Religion doesn’t allow for tolerance and unconditional love. It just doesn’t. And with the world the way it is today, the last thing we need is this archaic mess to screw things up.
And, about Elton John, I read about the interview the other day, and I agree. Everyone thinks I’m a bad person when I say that religion is negative, or that that we should get rid of it. But in actuality, it’s only because I care about my fellow man that I have these ideas. I feel that religion endangers me and the people I care about, and also that it’s silly.
November 17th, 2006 at at 8:26 pm
Next thing you know He’ll be saying something like. That wasn’t us (xians) who voted for those amendments to ban gay marriage. Honest it wasn’t.
November 18th, 2006 at at 3:39 am
No matter what, there will always be opposition to any religion. If religion is a set of rules or beliefs that someone lives by(Webster’s Revised Unabridged 1913) and there was a ban on religion, where would that leave you because your religion is ‘unbelief’ or ‘atheism’? There will always be a belief in something, whether that belief is in ‘existence’ or ‘non-existence’.
November 18th, 2006 at at 11:15 am
“From my point of view I would ban religion completely, […] organized religion doesn’t seem to work. It turns people into hateful lemmings and it’s not really compassionate.”
Elton and everyone else, this is a hasty generalization. It is like saying Atheism brings chaos. In some cases it might, and ultimately and logically and might, but many atheists are not anarchists. Medved’s point is actually valid, since the vast majority of Christians do not feel like those who created the websites you have listed. Grouping everone together, whatever points of view they might share in common, is not a wise thing to do and usually muddies that water and hides truth. I would simply say be more careful in throwing out guilt-by-association rhetoric.
November 18th, 2006 at at 4:43 pm
Dollar,
With the one exception, the list of links from my post are not isolated websites. Those links are just a small sampling of headlines about communities all over the world that are attempting to impose very real bans on homosexuals. Everything from limiting their right to be parents up to and including their right to exist in those communities. Most of it initiated “in the name of the Lord”. Couple that with the sweeping acceptance of gay marriage bans, and we are not talking about an insignificant minority, we are talking about a large percentage that are being led by self righteous homophobic “religious” leaders hell bent on eradicating what they consider to be crimes against God and nature. That doesn’t strike me as very “tolerant”. Medved’s point is crap.
As for a “ban on religion”, I would whole heartedly support one, as long as everyone else agrees. I consider it a worthwhile goal to try and convince them. I won’t see it in my lifetime, but I expect that humanity might be able to come out of the dark ages by the time my great grand children’s great grand children come of age. That is, assuming some fundamentalist religious whack job doesn’t start a nuclear war.
November 18th, 2006 at at 5:50 pm
There will always be a belief in something, whether that belief is in ‘existence’ or ‘non-existence’.
Which is like saying that people will always think something. So? Elton John’s statement was clearly targeted at organized religions i.e. Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc.. and was more about the Us vs. Them brain washing that comes with membership in such groups. Yes, one could argue that atheists also adopt an Us vs. Them position, but atheists derive their lack of belief in a much different way than theists derive their belief.
Atheists don’t have places of worship, weekly brainwashing sessions, secret handshakes, racial identities, or magic talismans. Atheism is a far more individualistic world view, and despite misplaced references to Stalin or Hitler or Mao, I doubt you will ever see an atheist suicide bomber or an atheistic crusade. Are rancor as atheists does not stem from a desire to “save” Muslims or convert Christians, but rather from a petition to society at large to leave your personal beliefs at the door, and to desist from imposing them on the rest of us. Religions, on the other hand, seek to impose their belief’s so as to “save the lost from damnation” or whatever. This imposition of beliefs is the behavior I would ban, not the beliefs themselves. I don’t really care if you believe that some loon got nailed to a tree and lived to tell about it, but how dare you try to make me (or anyone else) live my life your way because of it.
November 18th, 2006 at at 9:45 pm
“This imposition of beliefs is the behavior I would ban, not the beliefs themselves. I don’t
really care if you believe that some loon got nailed to a tree and lived to tell about it,
but how dare you try to make me (or anyone else) live my life your way because of it.”
You misunderstand the nature of what a belief is. If I believe something, that means (by definition) that I think it is true. I cannot believe my truck is green, but not truly think it is actually green. I would never say, “I believe my red truck is green.” As such, when I believe that Jesus Christ offers salvation, that means I think it is true, not some privitized notion that gets me through the day.
If I believe that a militant group of killers was working their way toward my city, I would do all in my power to warn my fellow inhabitants of the danger. This is what I as a Christian attempt to do. I am only attempting to “impose” certain beliefs because these beliefs are what I think are true and with very good reason and justification.
This, by the way, is what LLBP is attempting to do as well - by his / her own admission
“As for a ‘ban on religion’, I would whole heartedly support one, as long as everyone else agrees. I consider it a worthwhile goal to try and convince them.”
LLBP believes that atheism is true, and thus is seeking to impose that system of thought upon others. It is only natural to do this and I think we should get passed the whole I-am-angry-because-you-try-to-convert-attitude when in fact we are all trying to convert if indeed we believe our beliefs to be true and if we did not believe them to be true we would be foolish to believe them.
November 18th, 2006 at at 9:56 pm
Yeah, but Dollar, what would lead you to believe that a band of terrorists was making its way toward your city to do harm? Did you see them with your own eyes? Did somebody, a family member or trusted friend, call you to warn you?
On the other hand, I doubt you ever actually saw Jesus Christ in person, nor has anyone else you have known seen him. All it would take to turn me into a believing Christian would be for Jesus to appear in the room I am sitting in right now here as I type and for him to tell me….
Wait a second, there’s somebody in the room here with me. Holy shit! It’s Jesus!
Okay, I’m just kidding. Sorry, I couldn’t resist that.
But to get back to the point. You have never seen Jesus in person nor has anyone else alive today. You simply take it on faith that the Gospels in the Bible are a true and accurate account of a person who actually lived, performed miracles, was the son of the Creator of the Universe, died, and rose from the dead.
November 18th, 2006 at at 10:50 pm
Dollar,
I fully understand the nature of belief. It is you who misunderstands the nature of imposition. Writing about a belief, or speaking about a belief, is protected free speech and not an imposition. Legislating against a group of people based on belief in a fairytale is imposition.
November 19th, 2006 at at 8:21 pm
Do xians believe they will get extra brownie points for how many times they proseltyze or for how many converts they win? Do they believe they will get extra rewards in they afterlife like a spectacular trip for two around the Milky Way? Do xians believe they will get preferred treatment from their imaginary sky daddy and become his “special pet” for having bothered the most people in on atheists sites in the blogosphere? Do xians believe they will get their own fluffy cloud and golden harp for being the most pious? I mean…what is it that xians believe is in it for them that makes them feel compelled to bug the hell out of non-xians and to try to get them to “assimilate” to the “borg”? What the fuck is the point? Most xians could give two shits about other people most of the time, but feel compelled to “witness” about their religion to other people that they honestly cannot stand otherwise. They feel compelled to TELL others how to live according to their superstitious beliefs that are based on their crusty ancient texts, and indoctrinated bigotry and prejudices against others who are different from themselves even though these ones who are different are law abiding members of society. Why can’t xians just believe what they want, and live their lives the way they want, and leave us and our secular government the fuck alone? If xians and muslims could do this, atheist would have zero interest in having blogs like these because there is so much more interesting things in the world to spend our time on.
November 19th, 2006 at at 8:51 pm
Stardust, again the motivation comes from the fact that Christianity is true. If it were merely a privitized opinion, that would be different.
Plus (and I am joking a bit here, so we can all laugh a little, can’t we) think of how much more interesting it is to have the opposing view think enough of your atheistic blog to come by and chat awhile. I am merely stating my point of view (which I believe to be true, just as you believe your point of view to be true). Is this blog open to serious discussion or does it exist merely as an atheistic pep rally?
November 19th, 2006 at at 9:06 pm
“With the one exception, the list of links from my post are not isolated websites. Those links are just a small sampling of headlines about communities all over the world that are attempting to impose very real bans on homosexuals. Everything from limiting their right to be parents up to and including their right to exist in those communities. Most of it initiated “in the name of the Lord”.”
LBBP, I will be the first to admit that many Christians do not have a proper understanding of what it means to live biblically. I believe the Bible is true and accurate, thus I also believe homosexuality is wrong and people should not engage in the behavior. I do not think Scripture is necessary to teach this, nature itself (the size and fit of organs for example) should be clear indication of what is right and wrong in this matter.
On the other hand, I expect unbelievers to act like unbelievers. I expect those with depraved hearts to engage in depraved activity. Thus, I feel that these websites and the interface between church / government that underlies them is theologically inaccurate.
Of course it is unjust for a society to suffer because of the immoral behavior of certain people. Smokers for example cause the rest of society to pay a high price tag in dealing with their self-induced health difficulties. Homosexual behavior is similar in that it brings a number of burdens upon society as a whole, which is unjust.
But still, my job as a Christian is not to legislate morality. Without a change of heart, a change of behavior is useless ultimately (though it might increase the overall health of the society temporaily). Thus I believe that the answer to the issue of homosexuality is to show people the truth of Jesus Christ and His Word and pray that the Holy Spirit might open their eyes to see His glory.
Of course, just because one is born again does not completely iradicate sin from their lives, but generally does give them new desires, new goals, and a new direction. I believe the church promises way to much in unbiblcal proportions when she says, “You will not struggle with sin anymore.” A practicing homosexual might become a believer and struggle for the rest of his / her life with that sinful practice. Thank God that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Eph. 2:1-10).
I think all of those homosexual watchdog sights should change their focus to the disease instead of the symptom. They should also learn what the Bible teaches about struggling against flesh and blood. Ours is a spiritual battle.
Please do not make the mistake of grouping all Christians with many of the folks on that list. I know that there are many who identify there, and all true Christians are against homosexual behavior. But as for me, the model explained above makes more sense of the issue and is more in line with how the Bible would have Christians approach this difficult topic.
I suppose my model website on this issue would be Exodus International. Check it out. (www.exodus-international.org). I know that you totally disagree about their / my saying anything at all about the immorality of homosexuality. But you will notice these folks take a very loving and logical approach to the issue.
My overall point - Christians approach issues in many different ways, so to categorize them altogether and group them in a big bunch without justification is not really fair. I try my best not to do that with atheists or agnostics, understanding that there are many different stripes within the group.
November 19th, 2006 at at 9:11 pm
Dollar says: Is this blog open to serious discussion or does it exist merely as an atheistic pep rally?
If you want discussion, then please answer my questions that I have asked above.
Do xians believe they will get extra brownie points for how many times they proseltyze or for how many converts they win? Do they believe they will get extra rewards in they afterlife like a spectacular trip for two around the Milky Way? Do xians believe they will get preferred treatment from their imaginary sky daddy and become his “special pet” for having bothered the most people in on atheists sites in the blogosphere? Do xians believe they will get their own fluffy cloud and golden harp for being the most pious?
What’s in it for the xian to go around “witnessing” for Jeebus?
I really want to know what you expect for your proseltyzing and trying so hard to convince others that your gawd beliefs are true. I do not go around proseltyzing atheism. Most of the time atheists are discussing things that frustrate us, like xians trying to tell us how to live and trying to force religion into our secular government. Otherwise we wouldn’t give a hoot what you believed.
November 19th, 2006 at at 9:47 pm
Legislating against a group of people based on belief in a fairytale is imposition.
Your religion which is atheism is based on a set of beliefs and these beliefs lead you to your perception of truth. Jesus told Pilate the truth and Pilate said, “What is truth?”. He came into the world and the world knew Him not. Whether atheist, christian, or xianist legislator, there will always be imposition and with that an opposing group. So, the war rages on as men/women impose their idea of truth.
November 19th, 2006 at at 10:46 pm
Do xians believe they will get extra brownie points for how many times they proseltyze or for how many converts they win? Do they believe they will get extra rewards in they afterlife like a spectacular trip for two around the Milky Way? Do xians believe they will get preferred treatment from their imaginary sky daddy and become his “special pet” for having bothered the most people in on atheists sites in the blogosphere? Do xians believe they will get their own fluffy cloud and golden harp for being the most pious?
What’s in it for the xian to go around “witnessing” for Jeebus?
I apologize Dollar for stepping in.
stardust, there will be no points, no free trips, no preferential treatment, no fluffy cloud w/ a harp. Jesus did mention a mansion in John 14 and he also says for us to store up our treasure in heaven. The only true reward is eternal life in Heaven with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, the angels, the saints, and everything else that is there.
As for the witnessing, Jesus instructed his followers to go and make disciples which is called the Great Commission. All christians are called to do this. Another reason for me is because I understand and know how great this Love is that the Father has lavished on us and that eternal life in Hell is not something to laugh about. I don’t desire for you or anyone else to experience eternity that way. Speaking of eternity it was God who set eternity in the hearts of men and they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. Hope this helps you understand the way of the xian.
November 20th, 2006 at at 6:44 am
Immaneul…I am 52-years-old. I was a xian, Sunday school superintendent for more than three decades. Over the years, I had been a church member of the Lutheran variety, Baptist variety and Presbyterian variety..(they all think each other is wrong in biblical interpretation by the way.) I have read the bible twice through, and have spent hours in bible study. In college I studied Bible as literature in a social context, world religions, world mythologies, anthropology, psychology, and other courses in the social sciences. (Point is, I am not coming from an uneducated background and viewpoint). I have been baptised as an infant…and then again as a teenager…sprinkling the first time, and dunking the other…so you would think that this gawd would really be with me! LOL! But he remained silent (because gods do not exist). I saw people…even my own niece and sister pray and act all holy when it came to saving a stranger’s soul, but want nothing to do with these same people whom they wish to convert. (Don’t tell me you are sorry for these few xians who are not “true xians”…most xians are like this.) Church is a country club for a social gathering of friends…which is the good part. But the same kind of “fellowship” can come from any type of group getting together from bowling teams, to knitting circles, book groups, etc. Only the knitting circles, bowling teams, book groups, and other activities outside of religion are more fun. (If you really truly believe in jeebus, why don’t you give up all your worldly goods and be a nomad like he was? Because you want the afterlife, but not the Jeebus life.)
What I think, coming from my years of experience as a xian, is that xians just want numbers to reinforce their fantasies, and to build up their faith because without numbers you have nothing but your doubts, and your doubts will grow and take over until you would have to face the reality that there is no god, gods goddesses, or any supernatural beings, mansions in the sky and other things contained in your own delusions about life after death.
Xians are so obsessed with atheists and those who do not believe like they do because they wish REINFORCEMENT for the fantasy. That is what is in it for you, if you were really honest about it. The more sheeple you can recruit, the more you can keep lying to yourself and saying that the mythology is truth because you know deep down that no sky daddy is going to come down and tap you on the shoulder and say…hey! here I am!
November 20th, 2006 at at 6:46 am
Correction to above comment…I have spent YEARS in bible studies.
November 20th, 2006 at at 7:56 am
Stardust, I did answer your questions. I am motivated by the fact that Christianity is true. My motivation is that of love. I want the very best for the most people. Truth sets people free. As for atheism, if you believe that your perspective is true, you too should feel obligated to help others see the “truth.” (Which I think you are motivated in the same way that I am).
November 20th, 2006 at at 11:56 am
Correction to above comment…I have spent YEARS in bible studies.
So, why all the questions?
November 20th, 2006 at at 1:13 pm
Is this blog open to serious discussion or does it exist merely as an atheistic pep rally?
For the most part, it is in fact an atheist pep rally. You have your weekly brain washing sessions at church. There your priest tells you how worthless you are without Jesus, and you repeat the same tired prayers over and over ad nauseum. Atheists form loose social communities to discuss philosophy, science, or current events, and most importantly to cavetch about xians.
But, let’s be honest, you’re not really interested in serious discussion anyway. You’re not here to reflect on your faith or seriously consider an atheistic viewpoint. Your here to tell us we’re wrong, that not all xians are as bad as we think they are, and that if we don’t find Jesus (If he’s so great why is he always lost?) were going to hell.
There is no humility in your position. Yes, I know you will say the same about mine. However, the big difference is that you think that you already have all of the answers, where as I am still looking for them. My outrage is not against xians, it’s against anyone that thinks they really know anything. The “truth” is you could be wrong. The Muslims could be right, in which case you’re going to hell. The Buhdists could be right, in which case no one is going to hell. More likely, no one is right and the truth is some as yet imponderable none of us has even considered.
“Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.” — Thomas Paine
November 20th, 2006 at at 1:30 pm
Immaneul…I am 52-years-old. I was a xian […]
The more sheeple you can recruit, the more you can keep lying to yourself and saying that the mythology is truth because you know deep down that no sky daddy is going to come down and tap you on the shoulder and say…hey! here I am!
I’m not sure why, but this was in moderation until I noticed it this morning.
Wow, you were in even deeper than I was! I lost any semblance of faith soon after I went to college. I can certainly relate to the whole family still in it thing. My father is a semi-retired Episcopalian priest, and my wife is the day school director at the local Episcopalian church.
November 20th, 2006 at at 3:38 pm
But he remained silent…
stardust, he is anything but silent. God is always speaking. We are the ones that cannot see or hear spiritually. It is the Holy Spirit that gives us eyes to see and ears to hear Him. This may shock you to hear a xian say this but religion does suck because when the Spirit is quenched and not allowed to move because of man’s rules I could think of a hundred other things to be doing than sitting in a religious meeting without the Holy Spirit there. You may remember a scripture talking about the Holy Spirit being like the wind, you cannot see it but only the affects of it. This is still true today. Paul urges us to eagerly desire the greater gifts. My point mainly is to say that unless you go beyond belief and begin to experience God and the baptism of the Holy Spirit in dreams, visions, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, then yes to stay saved or not lose your faith is getting harder and harder to do. It is not a question of salvation, but how much of God are you experiencing?. We can argue belief for the rest of our lives, but when someone tells you about an experience or encounter with God and because you have never experienced such a thing this only leads you to unbelief. Unfortunately, there will always be doubting Thomas’ in the world who may never get the sign that they so mockingly suggest.
November 20th, 2006 at at 6:41 pm
Immanuel, god is silent because he is a figment of human imagination. No evidence has been found for this god except in the minds of humans. You write the same borg-like statements that all xians are taught to say…like robots. It is not up to me to tell others what to believe, or what to think…BUT I can tell you to keep your superstitious beliefs and delusions out of my life and our secular government.
God is silent, because gods do not exist…simple as that. Until you come up with some solid evidence for the existence of this god, that will be the atheists stance. You are making the claim, it is up to you to prove it. And without using your ancient texts.
Another point…IF this god did exist, he is merely a sadistic dick and I wouldn’t want anything to do with him anyway. The bible is full of stories of god ordering the deaths of mere infants, thousands and thousands of innocent people…horrible stories that I am now very sorry I taught to my children when they were little. The bible is full of horrific events, pornography and other things that most people would never let their children see at a movie theater…but they will hand them this awful book!
If this god created the world, he created evil. He created the way it is. An all -powerful god, all knowing god could have created the world any way he chose to. Well, nothing, not one single thing in the universe lasts forever, not us, not animals, not the stars, nor anything lasts. The natural world in all it’s beauty contains gruesome unavoidable realities…one creature feeding upon another just to survive. Then every living thing has to expel waste and get illnesses and breaks down…injuries, terminal illnesses and eventually die. What kind of shitty design is that for an all powerful creator?
But we know that nature is nature and we have no control over it and must accept things as they are. Xians and believers in all superstitions reject this reality and have created a way to cope with the realities of nature in the world and in the universe.
Like I said, it is not my “obligation” to convert people to atheism…it’s a free country. However, I do wish that you religious folks would keep your beliefs to yourself too and we would all get along much better. Religion divides…and brings war and conflict. Get rid of religion and we will see a huge advancement to becoming truly civilized.
It’s sad how xians live for death. The Abrahamic religions are all “death cults”. Atheists do not walk around waiting for death. We know it will happen someday, and I accept that it will be my end and I am glad for the time I have had on this planet. I wish it could be longer…but reality of nature says it isn’t meant to be. It is better to accept it with dignity than whimpering and hoping for a magic kingdom in the clouds.
I am much happier and at peace since leaving that all xianity bullcrap behind. I am happy to have found atheist groups and blogs online where I can be with people who share my views. However, I am not going to become a door-knocker for my non-beliefs…but if you come knocking on mine, I WILL tell you what I think.
November 20th, 2006 at at 6:44 pm
Forgot to answer this one…So, why all the questions?
To make YOU think about why you believe in such hocus pocus. You come to an atheist site, you are not the one in control. We are. Open your eyes and SEE the reality…your religion is a crutch. Free yourself. You don’t need a crutch.
November 20th, 2006 at at 7:26 pm
Wow, you were in even deeper than I was! I lost any semblance of faith soon after I went to college. I can certainly relate to the whole family still in it thing. My father is a semi-retired Episcopalian priest, and my wife is the day school director at the local Episcopalian church.
LBBP- Yeah, it took awhile. My husband and I didn’t go to church much during our first couple years of marriage. Then when we had kids we thought it was the right thing to do since that is how we were brought up. But our xian beliefs started dwindling as we were trying to explain questions to our adolescent kids and our answers were sounding more and more bizarre…like explaining how Santa claus gets into our house when we don’t have a chimney and one lie snowballs into another and another. It all sounds quite bizarre after awhile. The turning point to making us leave was when our daughter wasn’t saying the confessional prayer during a morning worship service like everyone else and my husband asked her why she wasn’t saying it and she said “Because it says that I am bad and I am NOT bad” (she was the sweetest little child in the world and how could we tell her YES…you are bad…). We walked away at that point and never looked back. It took awhile for us to “come out” to our family. My parents didn’t seem to care…but the Baptist family members…holy shit…they just won’t let up sometimes. I get emails from an aunt in North Carolina I have hardly ever seen over the years and she is worried about “not seeing me in heaven”…LOL!
My parents are “lukewarm Lutherans” as are my two brothers and their kids, my sister and her daughter are Baptists (her son-in-law is a youth pastor), my relatives in North Carolina are southern Baptists (who believe we northern relatives are ALL heathens whether believers in a god or not), my mother’s side of the family are all German Lutheran Missouri Synod (gloom and doomers), my two sis in laws are Catholic (ritual nuts who believe that all other xian sects have it wrong). My husband and I were Presbyterians when we left xianity (another pretty moderate sect so it wasn’t like we were “escaping” anything fanatical ) . So, we have a real mixture of religion in our family. It’s always when the Baptists are around that there has to be prayers and stuff…my husband and I excuse ourselves from the room for that. We have tolerated a lot over the years, but we feel that we don’t have to anymore. Why should we be the ones respecting their beliefs all the time and them not respecting us? We get fed up after so much catering to everyone else.
November 21st, 2006 at at 8:39 am
If this god created the world, he created evil. He created the way it is. An all -powerful god, all knowing god could have created the world any way he chose to. Well, nothing, not one single thing in the universe lasts forever, not us, not animals, not the stars, nor anything lasts. The natural world in all it’s beauty contains gruesome unavoidable realities…one creature feeding upon another just to survive. Then every living thing has to expel waste and get illnesses and breaks down…injuries, terminal illnesses and eventually die. What kind of shitty design is that for an all powerful creator?
God is silent, because gods do not exist…simple as that. Until you come up with some solid evidence for the existence of this god, that will be the atheists stance. You are making the claim, it is up to you to prove it.
This is what the fallen state of man has done. After the fall, God declared judgement over the earth and man because of sin. God intended for us to be in the garden with him even now. God did not create evil. When Satan fell that is when evil entered our world. Its not satan’s fault that Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They were given a choice at that moment and chose wrongly instead of obeying what God had told Adam not to do. We were in Adam’s bosom before time began and it was God’s original design for us to be in communion with him forever.
As for proof, the proof is in Jesus Christ. He came into this world to reveal the heart of the Father, but even then there was mocking and unbelief. The only difference between us is that I believe Jesus for who he said that he is and you don’t. God in the flesh walked the streets of Jerusalem for three years telling them who he was and where he came from but yet there was still unbelief even after the signs and wonders. They saw the miracles but yet still did not believe. I could send you videos, testimonies, and any other source that I could think of but there would be doubt and unbelief. This is why I said in a previous response that we have to go beyond belief and begin to experience the power of His Holy Spirit for ourselves. The kingdom of Heaven is not a matter of talk but of power.
Read about Smith Wigglesworth, Charles Finney, Charles Parham, John Wesley, Evan Roberts, the Moravians, Rolland and Heidi Baker, and Todd Bentley: these people saw and are seeing the power of God move in their day and now. These are only a few who have seen and been used by God to perform the signs and wonders that no one wants to believe.
November 21st, 2006 at at 9:12 am
“For the most part, it is in fact an atheist pep rally. You have your weekly brain washing sessions at church.”
So is this your brainwashing session? With all do respect, atheists tend to speak out of both sides of their mouths. You guys want the world to think you are independent critical thinkers, when in fact you have your own organizations and get-togethers like everyone else. BTW, thanks for comming over to this bread. I appreciate you taking the time to do that, though you used an ad hominem logical fallacy, calling me “sick” and not dealing with the data.
“But, let’s be honest, you’re not really interested in serious discussion anyway. You’re not here to reflect on your faith or seriously consider an atheistic viewpoint.”
I am here for serious discussion. I do not claim to know it all. In fact my personal claim is infinite stupidity. That is why I have decided to set my own opinions aside and trust someone who seems to know more than me - namely, Christ. If I thought I knew it all, I would not lean so heavily upon Him and His teaching. Paine’s quote reveals his ignorance of how to test statements / documents for truth content.
“No evidence has been found for this god except in the minds of humans.”
Stardust, you know better then this… We have the exact same evidence. Romans 1:20, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, so that they are without excuse.” When you say “no” evidence you are denying the existence of the universe, I suppose. We are all looking at the same evidence and coming to different conclusions. What you should say, to be more consistent logically, is - “Christians misinterpret the evidence.” You will be taken more seriously if you do this, because it will seem like you understand better what you are talking about.
“If this god created the world, he created evil. He created the way it is. An all -powerful god, all knowing god could have created the world any way he chose to.”
Stardust, God does all things for His own glory. He created the world with the capacity for evil and sufferning so that He receives a maximized glory from it. He is God-centered, not man-centered. He loves Himself more than man (or else He would not send them to Hell). I know that you can’t buy this theology, but my point is that evil and the existence of God can be logically reconciled. Most atheist philosophers have left this one alone and moved to the problem of pointless evil instead. You simply rant about it without thinking through the logic of it. I am not saying you have to believe, just see that the problem of evil is not a problem. Surely you have better arguments.
Read my blog post on this issue at http://thisbread.blogspot.com/2006/11/god-does-all-things-for-his-own-glory.html
“Open your eyes and SEE the reality…your religion is a crutch. Free yourself. You don’t need a crutch.”
Stardust, I will be the first to admit that I do need a crutch. It is important to say, however, that the need for a crutch is not a sign of insanity. In fact, the one who sees the need and responds properly seems to be the one who is thinking correctly.
“Religion divides…and brings war and conflict.” - Correction, truth divides. This is the nature of reality and to deny it is live with your head in the sand. People fight over many many issues, religious reasons are included. But if everyone was an atheist, believe me, people would still be fighting over economic issues, land, etc. You have committed another logical fallacy here, revealing that you are not thinking deeply enough about the issues.
Sorry I could not answer everyone and equally sorry if I come across the wrong way. Truthfully, I am enjoying our interchange and feel it is mutually beneficial. I apologize for the many, many non-thinking Christians you all have encountered and recognize our ingnorance by and large on important issues.
November 21st, 2006 at at 2:40 pm
I apologize for the many, many non-thinking Christians you all have encountered and recognize our ingnorance by and large on important issues.
Dollar, It’s funny that this is the standard and often stated programmed apology that we hear from many, many xians. It’s hard to take it seriously when so many say the exact same thing.
Also, you are using the ancient text of mythology which was written by faulty humans for your evidence. If I said that llamas exist, I could to retrieve one from somewhere and bring it for you to observe and touch…and it would “talk” to you more than your invisible imaginary friend does.
Funny how this god is only “felt” or “heard” by people who want to believe it, like children who wish to believe in fairies, unicorns, goblins, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Children believe with all their hearts that these things exist…yet they do not. This god belief is just a clinging to a childlike wish for something to be true.
As for religion causing division…it isn’t that “truth” divides…it is the various VERSIONS of what people wish to believe is the truth. If you packed representatives from all the denominations of xianity alone into one stadium it is my bet that you would spend an eternity trying to convince each other that your individual interpretations and understanding of YOUR truth is THE truth. You may even kill yourselves trying. I look at the overall xian demoninations and all the claims of being the “True Xians” and it is all so silly to see people in such disagreement about who has the “real” imaginary sky daddy.
I am sorry you were taught to need the crutch. I am fortunate enough to have found faith in myself enough not to need it. There is nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. Many mythologies were once a peoples’ religion, and this is just what xianity is…someday it may be replaced by something else. If humanity is lucky, religion will no longer be needed at all in some distant future.
As for going to your website…I don’t frequent xian blogs and you are not going to bait me over there because I know all too well what your real “mission” is here…you want to win converts to Jeebus.
Well, this fish isn’t taking the bait.
November 21st, 2006 at at 9:30 pm
The atheist alliance says that they are “…the only democratic atheist organization in the United States…” Does that mean there might be some atheist somewhere that is not democratic?
What an odd thing!!! This is like saying there are denominations within the atheist community. How could this be? The parallels are startling.
November 21st, 2006 at at 10:23 pm
With all seriousness, I am going all in with this one.
LBBP, there may not be atheistic crusades but there are certainly atheist conferences. We just missed the AAI convention in Sept. up in Penn. but we haven’t missed the ‘6th Atheist Conference’ being held in Vijayawada, India. Sounds like the same type of brain washing meetings that I attend.
Here is the offer: stardust, LBBP, and ~IAM~, this is just for you. You pick which atheistic conference you want to attend and I will pick which xianist conference I want to attend and then somehow we would go incognito. I haven’t figured out all the details, but I would be willing to pay your way to both conferences. Remember, the kingdom of Heaven is not a matter of talk but of Power. Are you ready to go beyond belief? I am willing to go and discover the TRUTH with whoever that wants to know once and for all the TRUTH!!!
November 21st, 2006 at at 10:26 pm
What an odd thing!!! This is like saying there are denominations within the atheist community. How could this be? The parallels are startling.
In the real world, we call these differences of opinion, which are based on arguments and interpretation of facts. In the religious world the denominations simply correspond to the number of opportunist power-hungry crooks who decided to create a religion in order to generate wealth and power.
November 21st, 2006 at at 10:30 pm
Immanuel….atheism is not a religion and no matter how you try, you will not be able to “borg” us into your xian “worldview.” Atheists might have different viewpoints on things and varying political opinions etc, and we may not always agree on various issues in society, however, atheists do not resort to believing in imaginary invisible friends and other fantasies like thinking you are going to go somewhere over the rainbow when you die. There is absolutely NO PARALLELS on the AA website for delusions, superstitions, evil gods, angels, devils, nor any other mythological beliefs.
Xians are so used to “cherry picking” and taking things out of context in their own religion that it has become a habit. You must read, and not skim things nor pick and choose what you want to use for your own purposes to create your own meaning for things. You highlighted the subtitle to Atheist Alliance without actually reading the website.
Atheist Alliance International (AAI) is an organization of independent religion-free groups and individuals in the United States and around the world. Our primary goals are to help democratic, atheistic societies become established and grow and to work in coalition with like-minded groups to advance rational thinking through educational processes. Virtually all income goes to these causes. We have little paid staff. Our members make all the decisions and do almost all of the work.
November 21st, 2006 at at 10:34 pm
Here is the offer: stardust, LBBP, and ~IAM~, this is just for you. You pick which atheistic conference you want to attend and I will pick which xianist conference I want to attend and then somehow we would go incognito.
Now I am getting pissed because you, like a typical xian you are, are NOT READING what I have written. I was a xian for more than THREE DECADES and need no more of it. I have REJECTED IT. It is mythology and nothing more. I do think that you should read some Dawkins, Harris and Dennett…and take your religion and SHOVE IT.
November 21st, 2006 at at 11:08 pm
And for good measure, throw in “Guns, Germs and Steel” by Jared Diamond.
November 21st, 2006 at at 11:12 pm
Tommykey…Now I have another book to add to my reading list. Looks like a good one.
November 21st, 2006 at at 11:26 pm
stardust, I have read what you have written. All I am saying is, go somewhere where the Spirit of the Lord is moving and experience the power of the Holy Spirit. Your were a xian for all those years without any teaching, very little belief, or practice of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The denominations that you were a part of and just like a lot of the church today don’t understand or want to believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The same baptism that was experienced in Acts is still true today. This is not a statement denying salvation, but a statement of go beyond belief and begin to experience the fullness of God.
For me to bring the sick or the dead to your doorstep, so that you can see the miracle is the same attitude as the ones that were there that day when Jesus was on the cross and they were yelling at Him to come down if he was the Son of God. God will only reveal himself to the heart that is seeking Him and not the one mocking Him. There is more to Christianity than just sitting in a church, listening to another slick message, or going to homecoming and stuffing your face. The more is in Holy Spirit and what He does in us and through us to touch this world. I plead your Blood, Jesus!!!
November 21st, 2006 at at 11:39 pm
In the real world, we call these differences of opinion, which are based on arguments and interpretation of facts. In the religious world the denominations simply correspond to the number of opportunist power-hungry crooks who decided to create a religion in order to generate wealth and power.
Have you ever heard of C.T. Studd? Probably not, he gave up more money than you or I will probably ever make in our lifetime unless you are the guy that is so rich that you won’t stand up to save some money on your car insurance. He was trained a missionary in China under Hudson Taylor and after that spent the majority of his life in Africa. Amazingly, there was at least one honest one in your basket of power-hungry crooks. Don’t be foolish enough to think that he was or is the only one.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 12:04 am
our were a xian for all those years without any teaching, very little belief, or practice of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Immanuel…you don’t even know me. I was once a believer in all this absurdity. I was a sunday school TEACHER and very involved in a variety of denominations. I said this before…you have not read very thoroughly if you did read. This belief is so imbedded in you because you want to believe it. Well, I don’t. You xians just don’t stop…because you have doubts and if you can convince us then you can convince yourself. Being a past xian, I know what a threat “doubt” is…because doubts lead to FREETHINKING if you give in to those doubts.
I have addressed the issue of ALL xian denominations claiming to having the “true xianity” and you have ignored that and still claim YOUR VERSION to be the truth…when in fact it is all a bunch of superstitious nonsense. You all claim to have the truth. If you were put into a room with all other xian denominations, you would all end up killing each over who holds the truest truth. You are all wrong…religion and xianity is a BIG LIE…and you xians are the ones lying to yourselves.
Your religion and bible are as gruesome as a bloody horror flick. Your “symbol” is an execution device. Blood, gore, violence, death, vindictiveness against innocent babies, innocent people and the beautiful planet earth itself. It is a pornographic as any porn movie. It is disgusting and disturbing when you really, really consider the content of the bible. It is grotesque and quite bizarre once you can step out of it and actually analyze it. It is also absurd. It is absurd to believe that an all knowing and all powerful entity to set up such disgusting methods for coercion. This god sets up his “children” for failure and then create a son for himself to torture and murder, and then bring back to life and that is quite bizarre as Cronos eating his children. Your only “goal” in life is to go to heaven because earth is “bad”. So why put people here in the first place? It is because it’s a hodge podge of mythological tales created by humans in an attempt to explain things that they did not understand. It is just as aburd a story as any of the world mythologies.
People no longer believe the world is flat…why the hell can’t they let go of these ancient beliefs.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 12:25 am
Immanuel…you have been coming here and telling us what we should do and how we need to find god…well why don’t YOU read some mythology and free yourself from those ancient chains of religious superstition? No lightning bolt will come down and strike you dead, so no need to be afraid. Read some world mythologies, which are much older than your xian mythology, and you will learn how your religion “evolved” from and incorporated other religions, particularily Mithraism.
Mithras and Mithraism
“Roman Mithras was perhaps the greatest rival to early Christianity for many reasons. As well as being a popular pagan religion practised by the Roman Army, Mithraism had many similarities to Christianity. Mithras was born of a virgin, remained celibate, his worship involving baptism, the partaking of bread marked with a cross and wine as sacrificial blood, held Sundays sacred and Mithras was born on 25th of December. Mithraist called themselves ‘brother’ and were led by a priest called ‘father’ (Pater). The symbol of the father were a staff, a hooked sword, a ring and hat.
These similarities frightened the early Christian leaders - that almost 500 years before arrival of Christ all of the Christian mysteries were already known. To combat this, Christian writers said that the Devil knew of the coming of Christ in advance and had imitated them before they existed in order to denigrate them. As Christianity gained strength and became the formal religion of the Roman Empire, the ‘Cult of Mithras’ was one of the first pagan cults to come under attack in the fifth century; Temples of Mithras, like most other pagan Temples, were destroyed and Churches built on them.”
Also Constantine and Mithraism
November 22nd, 2006 at at 12:56 am
Have you ever heard of C.T. Studd? Probably not, he gave up more money than you or I will probably ever make in our lifetime unless you are the guy that is so rich that you won’t stand up to save some money on your car insurance. He was trained a missionary in China under Hudson Taylor and after that spent the majority of his life in Africa. Amazingly, there was at least one honest one in your basket of power-hungry crooks. Don’t be foolish enough to think that he was or is the only one.
Did CT Studd create a religion? No, so your whole response isn’t relevant to what I said. CT Studd was a victim of the religion, not the creator.
While it’s been a while since I’ve read that book, if I recall I didn’t find it that interesting. Question of the book is- why did societies in different geographical locations develop at different rates? Well, the only answer to that question is obvious-geography!. He does go into some detail though, if your interested in that. Alternatively, you could download the TV documentary series. It’s 3 parts, highly repetitive, but it gives you the idea.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 12:04 pm
I’ve seen Dollar say this at least twice now:
“Stardust, you know better then this… We have the exact same evidence. Romans 1:20, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, so that they are without excuse.” When you say “no” evidence you are denying the existence of the universe, I suppose. We are all looking at the same evidence and coming to different conclusions. What you should say, to be more consistent logically, is - “Christians misinterpret the evidence.” You will be taken more seriously if you do this, because it will seem like you understand better what you are talking about.”
I’m sorry but what kind of twisted logic is this? Oh, I know, it is circular logic, ie logical fallacy. No, you do not have the same evidence as us, because the universe is not evidence for god unless one has already made the circular assumption that god created the universe. See, it’s circular because you make an assumption that god created the universe, then look at the universe and say, “See, it’s here because god created it, which proves my assumption.” It’s like defining a word with itself. So, before you go off on others not knowing what they are talking about, you might want to clean your own house.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 12:23 pm
No, you do not have the same evidence as us, because the universe is not evidence for god unless one has already made the circular assumption that god created the universe.
OMGF - This is a good point. When xians do not understand something or cannot explain how something came to be they automatically say “god made it, therefore there is a god” Twisted logic is indeed what it is. It’s exactly as you said “like defining a word with itself.” I think Dollar needs to add Carl Sagan to that reading list we have started putting together for Immanuel in above comments. A course in Logic and reasoning might be beneficial for both of them, as well.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 1:32 pm
You know, now that I think about it, Dollar’s logical fallacy might better be described as begging the question rather than circular reasoning. Either way, it’s still illogical.
November 22nd, 2006 at at 3:08 pm
No, see what Dollar doesn’t understand is that the universe is evidence for Vishnu, the Hindu god. How so you may ask? Well, Vishnu created the universe, so we see evidence for Vishnu’s existence everywhere we go!
November 22nd, 2006 at at 3:30 pm
Well, Vishnu created the universe, so we see evidence for Vishnu’s existence everywhere we go!
Delta…and there are the four Vedas to prove it!
November 22nd, 2006 at at 11:40 pm
I said this before…you have not read very thoroughly if you did read. This belief is so imbedded in you because you want to believe it. Well, I don’t. You xians just don’t stop…because you have doubts and if you can convince us then you can convince yourself. .
I am reading, you’ve been there done that but you never experienced anything. Were you ever given a dream or a vision from Skydaddy? Did you ever receive a word of prophecy? Did you ever have the discernment of spirits? Did you ever speak in tongues or given the interpretation for the tongues? Did you receive a word of knowledge for someone? Did you ever see a miracle or healing?
This what I keep saying over and over, go beyond belief and experience Skydaddy for yourself.
As for doubts, you are the one with doubts. I only have faith coupled with knowledge out of experiences from the above questions that you unfortunately will say no to all of the above.
November 23rd, 2006 at at 12:53 am
Let’s suppose there is an enemy and there is no understanding or knowledge that an enemy even exists. Isn’t this the perfect scenario for said enemy to overtake the ignorant?
I personally have had three encounters with demonic possession. When someone’s eyes go black, I mean empty, dark, and evil looking, and they start yelling and hissing at you, it didn’t take long to figure out that this is not natural, but something spiritual taking place. There is an enemy and they are spiritual beings. We are caught in the middle of a spiritual battle for our very souls.
A book that talks about this very thing is ‘He came to set the captives free’ by Rebecca Brown, MD. (ISBN: 0883683237). This is the story of one of the top witches in the US and how she was delivered from the bondage of satanic worship. Her title was ‘bride of satan’,she literally married satan in a ceremony, in her day she was the most powerful witch in the US. She also shares about the satanic church and their demonic, horrifying practices, such as, human sacrifice. The first 90-100 pages will freak you out to say the least. In the book, she shares about astral-projection, shape changing, and all the other demonic activities that go on in the satanic church.
The missionaries that work in Africa see this stuff all the time. Ask them if they believe in the spiritual.
If you can’t start with believing in Jesus, then start with the spiritual. Its real. satan talks in the first person extremely well. One of those voices or thoughts in your head is probably him!!! Those fiery arrows from Ephesians 6 are the thoughts that he plants in our minds and what we do from there is where our ‘free-will’ begins. Wisdom and Folly are both standing at the city gates, they are both crying out to this generation. The only problem is that Folly is screaming and Wisdom whispering. Holy Spirit give us eyes to see and ears to hear so that we can know and understand the things of the spirit.
November 23rd, 2006 at at 1:12 am
No, so your whole response isn’t relevant to what I said. CT Studd was a victim of the religion, not the creator.
I apologize, you are right. I was so eager to pounce with a response that I misunderstood the comment. So, let me try this again. How are Martin Luther, John Wesley, or William Seymour opportunistic power-hungry crooks?
November 23rd, 2006 at at 8:57 am
I am reading, you’ve been there done that but you never experienced anything. Were you ever given a dream or a vision from Skydaddy?
You obviously have a comprehension problem or are so eager to try to convert me that you are not reading everything I write…I USED TO BELIEVE. Now I don’t because I “saw the light” of reality. Xian mythology is like all other mythology — a coping device for the problems and fears in life.
There are no sky daddy’s…none. You have given us zero evidence for the existence of a sky daddy except from your ancient xian mythology book.
I personally have had three encounters with demonic possession. When someone’s eyes go black, I mean empty, dark, and evil looking, and they start yelling and hissing at you, it didn’t take long to figure out that this is not natural, but something spiritual taking place.
Immanuel…you obviously are in need of a psychiatrist, and I don’t say that in a mean way. If you are experiencing this kind of thing, then you have a serious mental problem. Get some help. You are quite a scary individual if you are not joking.
What missionaries are encountering overseas is someone else’s superstitious beliefs. Humans create crutches to explain things or to help allieviate their fears about things they have no control over. There are many of us, however, who realize and accept that there are indeed things we cannot control, and shit that happens in life and we just roll with it. However, superstitious people believe they can somehow magically change reality…it is better for you to accept reality instead of going around life mentally ill.
Again…get some help.
That’s all I, personally have to say to you.
November 23rd, 2006 at at 6:25 pm
Isn’t it interesting that almost all of these supposed stories of demonic possession seem to take place in Africa, where the only word we have to go on is that of the person or persons who carried out the exorcism?
November 23rd, 2006 at at 11:32 pm
Tommykey - And it’s also interesting that this “demonic possession” seems to occur within certain groups of believers, and those brought up in religions that believe in demons and evil spirits. Similar to the “speaking in tongues” drama that goes on in many pentecostal churches. You don’t see these people dropping to the floor, shaking and speaking in jibberish anywhere else but inside their own churches. None “get the spirit” in malls, grocery stores, amusement parks, etc. etc. It’s a cult phenomenon that is kept pretty much in the company of their peers who are all doing it too.
However, when people like Immanuel start talking of being demon possessed and hearing “satan” talking to them…it is time for serious psychiatric intervention. From Wikipedia Those who profess a belief in demonic possession have sometimes ascribed the symptoms associated with mental illnesses such as hysteria, mania, psychosis, or dissociative identity disorder to possession. There is, however, a mental disease called demonomania or demonopathy. This is a monomania in which the patient believes that he or she is possessed by one or more demons. Emotional monomania is that in which the patient is obsessed with only one emotion or several related to it; intellectual monomania is that which is related to only one kind of delirious idea or ideas.
Medicine can explain some aspects of the “symptoms” shown by those persons allegedly possessed; it is known that “supernatural strength” is common in some cases of insanity (maniacs, energumens, etc.).
November 24th, 2006 at at 6:06 am
How many atheists have been possessed by demons? How many church-goers? Seems like atheists are much safer, and if one doesn’t want to be possessed, one should avoid church.
November 24th, 2006 at at 7:48 am
and if one doesn’t want to be possessed, one should avoid church.
OMGF - LOL! Looking back on it all, all xian sec