The Pledge Hits Home
I consider myself lucky to have one of the most intelligent groups of readers in the atheist blogosphere. So, I’m turning to you all with a little problem. I want your input and your suggestions.
My wife just became a preschool teacher at a public charter school at the beginning of this school year. She was told to say the Pledge of Allegiance each morning, but she believes it to be unconstitutional (duh). Rather than start a confrontation, she just excluded the Pledge from her classroom. I think she made the right decision. There’s no reason to stir things up unless pressed.
Everything was just fine until her boss came in to observe her class. During the subsequent meeting, she told my wife to start saying the Pledge. We were just discussing how she should handle this. The only thing we agree on is that the words “under god” will not pass her lips under any circumstances.
Her original idea was to simply leave out the offending pair of words. These are very young children who have never learned the Pledge before, so they won’t know the difference. I pointed out that this approach is a time bomb. One of the kids will go home and say “Mommy, I learned the Pledge of Allegiance.” When the child recites the altered Pledge, an angry phone call to the school will soon follow. When they speak to my wife about it, and she refuses to use the revised Eisenhower version, she will probably be fired. At that point, we have no choice but to call the ACLU, and there will be reporters in my driveway within 24 hours.
I suggested that she speak to her boss right away and tell her that she’s not going to include the prayer clause. By the way, my wife is not “out” as an atheist at the school as of yet (though she did say before being hired that she’s “not religious”), and all of her coworkers are monotheists. My guess is that she’ll be told to skip the Pledge entirely or that she’ll be fired on the spot. If the former, problem solved (though this is unlikely since the curriculum they use requires the Pledge). If the latter, however, we have no evidence as to why she was fired, and we have no case.
So, what do you think we should do here? I know some of you will say that we should become the next Michael Newdow and take the atheist cause to the Supreme Court. I would really rather avoid that option. So, barring anything that will get our pictures in the paper, how should we handle this?
~I AM~
October 12th, 2006 at at 8:49 pm
I never attended a preschool, so I’m not quite sure how they function academically. If there is any form of homework involved, she could ask her students to ask their parents what the Pledge is. Subsequently, she could have a different student each day lead the class in recitation of the aforementioned mindless oath of faith.
October 12th, 2006 at at 9:18 pm
I second the idea of having a student lead the class every day. Of course in order to do that, they need to learn it in the first place. Can preschoolers read yet?
I think your wife may have to compromise her values in order to avoid dealing with the consequences. It is unfortunate, but I don’t know if standing up for yourselves is worth it in this case.
One could argue that not standing up for yourselves on the small issues is what lets these problems continue… but if you do you will take a hit.
I think you should include “Under God” but then add “subversive” material to the curriculum in other areas. Maybe Darwin can balance out Eisenhower?
October 12th, 2006 at at 9:25 pm
Hi I AM!
I just addressed the Pledge on my new blog as well.
My son started kindergarten last month and I told the teacher privately that when it is my son’s turn to lead the class in reciting the Pledge, he will skip the words “under God”.
Of course, your wife’s dilemma is much more serious, she being the teacher. Unfortunately, the best option for her, in my opinion, is to simply teach the Pledge as it currently is. Once the kids have it memorized, she can have a different student lead the class each day. That way, she can get around having to say it personally. Even better, she can make memorizing the Pledge a homework assignment the kids can do with their parents so that they get up to speed even faster.
As I argued on my blog, there are some battles worth fighting and some that are not. I assume your wife needs the job to help pay the bills, and if she were fired, not only will it hurt your cash flow, your wife would be unlikely to begin a new teaching job until next September, unless she can find work as a sub.
BTW, both my son and daughter were taught the Pledge in preschool at the day care center they attended, and which my daughter still attends.
From an atheist perspective, I know my advice is probably not what you are hoping to hear. But at the same time, I don’t feel I have the right to encourage you to take legal action so I can vicariously benefit from a struggle you and your wife would have to fight.
Best wishes to you and your wife in whatever decision you make in this matter. Do what you believe is best for the both of you.
October 12th, 2006 at at 9:26 pm
Oops, I should have read Seth’s message first!
October 12th, 2006 at at 9:37 pm
Although not entirely the same situation my family faced a similar problem earlier this year.
On my son’s first day of first grade he returned home with a colorful yellow flyer entitled First Grade News. It was mostly a standard welcome letter, enthusiastically describing the general curriculum, required school supplies and acceptable snacks. In the midst of this however, the following paragraph loomed:
**Our class will say the Pledge of Allegiance each morning. If you do not wish your child to participate in this, please send me a brief note. He/she can stand quietly during this time.**
Here’s my “brief note”:
———-
Dear Mrs. Singerman,
This note is regarding your First Grade News flyer sent home with Liam yesterday, specifically the paragraph regarding the Pledge of Allegiance.
I was very surprised to see that the students will have a daily recitation of the Pledge. As someone who attended Shaker schools from kindergarten through twelfth grade, I do not recall ever having such a requirement.
As non-believers, the problem our family faces is not that our son is forced to recite the Pledge. The problem is that due to our core beliefs he is *prevented* from reciting it.
Clearly the language in the Pledge speaks to the majority, however it is exclusionary to those members of other religious communities or none at all, and as such effectively bars those outside the “Judeo-Christian” tradition from pledging allegiance to their country. From this, the value of their citizenship, whether as Americans or simply of the classroom, is degraded. The Pledge therefore defines them as outside of the community, as people who cannot express their patriotism without violating their most profound beliefs.
Although a student’s option to “stand quietly during this time” certainly appears reasonable on the surface, I would ask you to please step back and consider this exclusion in light of the core American principles on which the Pledge is constructed. If we are truly to be “one nation, indivisible,” we must carefully consider the impact of our edicts on minorities. To do otherwise creates a religious requirement for loyalty and tells non-believers that they cannot be fully American.
Our history is one of broadening the definitions of Americanism and historically the Shaker Heights School System has been a pioneer in matters of integration and inclusion. I’m sure you can see how our ongoing commitment to these principles is tested when we are dismissive of students who, though not like ourselves, share in the American experience.
———-
The result? My son’s teacher asked me to come in to discuss the situation and she was very understanding. We agreed that an alternative act of patriotism would be appropriately inclusive of all the kids and now each morning they participate in a completely non-religious “Flag Ceremony” and everyone’s happy.
Sometimes we atheist types expect the worst (understandably). My advice to you is to be open and honest and see what happens. You might be surprised at the results. I was.
October 12th, 2006 at at 11:10 pm
Teach both. First the real one, then some history, then the evil one, and last, why it is not nice for the majority to bully any minority. Just a thought. How does one communicate with this age group about anything?
October 12th, 2006 at at 11:16 pm
If she works in a school where the requirement of that school is that the children learn the pledge, she has no option but to fulfill that part of the contract, unless she decides to speak to the principal and explain that she sees it as unconstitutional; or she can decide to go ahead with the pledge and work actively outside her work environment to have the “pledge requirement” changed.
October 13th, 2006 at at 5:23 am
I second this suggestion. I don’t think preschoolers are going to get the “Under God” bit of the pledge, but your wife might sow the seeds of skepticism. This could have a far bigger impact than refusing to recite the pledge.
If the children’s parents get wind of the issue over the pledge, you can be sure they’ll try even harder to beat religion into their kids. Your wife can advance her own values better with a quieter, less openly confrontational approach.
When I was a kid, I went to a kindergarten where the teacher one day taught us the difference between fact and opinion. This lesson turned me into a little skeptic and has never left me.
October 13th, 2006 at at 5:39 am
Either play ball and suck it up. Quit. or Fight. If you don’t need the money, I say stir up some shit, and flee before it gets too bad.
October 13th, 2006 at at 5:40 am
Obviously it is up to you and your wife to make your decision. If your financial situation is more important than taking a stand at this point, then that should take precedence. It isn’t really the “moral high road,” but sometimes its what you “need” to do. (This isn’t meant as a put down - I’ve made similar “financial” situations when I didn’t think it was the “right” thing to do.)
If it is not financially imperative that your wife keep her job, here’s what I would suggest. Have her go in to talk with her principal with you as a witness and/or with a tape recorder running. Have her explain that she is willing to say the pledge but not the words “under god.” If he vetoes that option, then offer some alternatives - another teacher can lead the pledge until the kids know it and then one of the kids can lead it. Or the principal himself can lead it, etc. If the principal still insists on the kids saying the pledge, I would also add the caveat that she wants to ensure that kids whose parents find the pledge unacceptable can request that their child not have to say it (like Chaz’s experience above).
Regardless of the outcome of the discussion, you will have documentation of the conversation - either multiple witnesses or a tape recording. If she gets fired as a result of standing up for her religious views, call the ACLU and sue the bastards. The more awareness we raise as atheists about the discrimination we face in this society, the sooner the discrimination will end. I vote that she take a stand!!
October 13th, 2006 at at 6:29 am
You say that this is a “public charter school”. Does this mean that your wife is a city or county employee? Is there an EEO/EEOC officer who she, as an employee, is supposed to approach if there is a problem with sexual or religious harassment? Perhaps a quiet consult with this person would be helpful. If the system is corrupt, your wife’s anonymity might not be protected, and she could be fired. However, if the EEO officer elevates the issue without violating anonymity, that could take care of the problem. As much as *you* might not like to become the new poster child for freedom, the school system is probably even less anxious for the expense and publicity of a lawsuit.
October 13th, 2006 at at 7:00 am
I would recommend speaking with a civil rights attorney, but in the meanwhile, following the suggestion of Seth. She could also teach the kids that the original pledge didn’t contain the clause “under God”, and explain the political background (McCarthyism) for the reason of inclusion. I don’t see how her school can “get her” for that…it’s true.
She could also speak candidly with the principal about the issue, and have an attorney contact the principal if you receive counsel that you would have a good case, should the school try to fire her.
It’s a real tough situation. If you really need the money, I would not vote for camera crews and the ACLU. If you don’t…well…you’d have a much better case than Newdow.
October 13th, 2006 at at 10:27 am
I don’t have any advice. But I hope whatever you two decide to do works out for the best for you.
I’m trying to remember, did the “under god” thing replace a something that was previously in the pledge, or was it just added to the sum of words?
October 13th, 2006 at at 10:39 am
I’m trying to remember, did the “under god” thing replace a something that was previously in the pledge, or was it just added to the sum of words?
The original version was “I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
October 13th, 2006 at at 1:24 pm
As a certified teacher for K-12, and now working as a substitute, it is my opinion that preschoolers are way too young to understand the meaning of this attempt to indoctinate. In their minds reciting the pledge is no different than the reciting of familiar nursery rhymes, which is how the young ones take it. If you begin to explain the history of the pledge about when “under gawd” was added to a three or four-year-old, he or she isn’t going to know what the hell you are talking about. Unfortunately, when teaching in the public school system, teachers are forced to do a lot of things against our own opinions and values. (”peer mediation” when a child is being bullied and kissing the bully’s butt is my biggest pet peeve) I am agreement with the person who said that if your wife needs the job or doesn’t want to lose it, she will end up having to go along and play their little games. If the job doesn’t matter, and if I didn’t care if my peaceful life were disrupted, I would fight against the god part of the pledge being said in secular public schools.
(Being a sub I can get away without doing the pledge and if caught would just say..oh, I forgot, sorry…then “forget” again. LOL!)
October 13th, 2006 at at 2:44 pm
I know exactly what she’s going through. Okay, maybe not exactly, but pretty close. At my high school, there is a nursery school that I’ve chosen to work in. And the very first day the other girls came in, I knew I was in trouble. Every one of them was wearing a gold cross necklace, and I walked in holding The End of Faith. I haven’t recited the Pledge in over a year, and I haven’t said the words “under god” since 8th grade. I took this course because I am interested in becoming a teacher, however I am quickly realizing that many parents don’t want an atheist teaching their kids.
So far, I’ve been too “busy” with other things to say the pledge with the other girls, but in two weeks, I’ll be circle head(which means I will be the one helping them say it). I’ve tried everything. I suggested that we sing a patriotic song instead or perhaps a poem. But they won’t hear of it. Maybe your wife could try one of these ideas?
However, if not, I suggest that she just say the pledge. Perhaps it is a bit *insulting*, but it isnt worth losing a good job.
I hope this works out for both of you.
October 13th, 2006 at at 5:57 pm
As someone else said above, “some things are worth fighting for, and some are not.” It is up to you to decide what things fall into which category.
October 13th, 2006 at at 10:56 pm
Chaz makes some good points. Be honest. Be open. If the others at the school are even just a little bit reasonable they’ll listen.
October 14th, 2006 at at 4:32 pm
The importance of one’s ideals and morals are ALWAYS more important than a job or social position. If you’re willing to get kicked around, spat on, and ridiculed, you shouldn’t have the courage to have the opinions in the first place.
October 14th, 2006 at at 8:30 pm
Personally, I wouldn’t do the Pledge even if “under God” wasn’t in there. These kids aren’t old enough to give informed consent to a pledge. Forced recitation of the Pledge only acts as indoctrination. It is no different than taking them to church every Sunday and brain-washing them with the fear of God. To me, the Pledge represents a chauvinistic world-view and encourages everything that is wrong with America. You might as well end it with “USA, USA, Number 1, Number 1″.
I feel for your wife. She goes into a profession like teaching because she wants to contribute to the development of the next generation and instead her school is more concerned about indoctrinating its students. At the least, she could contact the ACLU or similar legal organization and find out what rights she has (or doesn’t have). But I don’t think anyone else can answer for her as far as what she should do, that’s a decision that only she can make.
I’m sure I’m not the only one that will be waiting to find out what happens next.
October 15th, 2006 at at 3:23 am
Maybe she could try to talk to her boss and show her concern (a fake one) that telling a preschooler to say the pledge is an insult to the pledge and the country, because they do not understand what it means to pledge allegiance to their country. Ask her to use a simile like, “It’s like asking a kid to ….”.
October 16th, 2006 at at 4:10 pm
Two thoughts: (1) Officially, the pledge is what it is right now, “under god” included, no matter how much your wife objects to it. She could teach preschoolers the pledge in that context, as it exists right now, and not as she (and many of us) would like it to be. (2) Although the battle to take “under god” out of the pledge should be fought, a preschool classroom isn’t the place to fight it, because it can’t be won there. Standing on principle there will probably get her fired and/or ostracized, but it won’t get “under god” out of the pledge.
October 18th, 2006 at at 1:41 am
If you have opted to work for an organisation the core values of which you disgaree with I suspect you may need to swallow your pride or lose your job. I am a republican (small r) in an organisation headed by the Queen of England. I swear my obedience to her as long as she is leader, but my opinion is that she shouldn’t be.
Why not have a large blank piece of paper in the classroom headed ‘under God?’ Write down or draw everything anyone says that contributes to an understanding of what that means, serious or facile, right or wrong.
October 18th, 2006 at at 9:24 am
Why not have a large blank piece of paper in the classroom headed ‘under God?’ Write down or draw everything anyone says that contributes to an understanding of what that means, serious or facile, right or wrong.
ST - This might be a good suggestion for older children, but pre-schoolers are too young to analyze something like that. Talking about it and emphasizing the god part by drawing pictures, etc. would actually bring the subject directly to their attention. If the subject is not brought up, preschoolers most likely would not even pay attention to it.
From my experience, at the pre-school level and even a little older at the kindergarten/first grade level, the Pledge is just like another nursery rhyme to memorize even though it is the early start of indoctrination for patriotism and gawd worship.
It seems the issue here are the concerns about the non-believer being forced to say the pledge when it is against their principles. What if the teacher were Jehovah’s Witness? Because of their religious beliefs, JWs are against pledges to flags, country and such. Are teachers who are Jehovah’s Witnesses forced to lead the pledge in the classrooms they teach in? I don’t know the answer to that myself and is why I am asking.
October 18th, 2006 at at 10:16 am
Just say ‘wonderdog’ instead.
October 18th, 2006 at at 1:16 pm
I agree with Stardust. As someone who has taught in a preschool I doubt that the preschoolers will really grasp the concept. In fact, they’re more likely to imitate your wife and whatever reactions she displays while reciting the pledge. Perhaps she could bring up with the administration how the recitation is age-inappropriate for her students and offer an alternative activity (perhaps involving something patriotic without the blatant religious overtones.)
Any public school, charter or not, is likely to have students with varying religious beliefs. Does the school have a policy for families who do not want their children exposed to religion in school? Does the school in any way support or prohibit the celebration of religious holidays in the classroom? If such a policy exists the application of it for staff could be discussed.
I, too, taught in a setting where I was not “out” as an atheist, though I never tried to hide it. It always amazed me how many people assumed I was a Christian, even thought they knew I never attended church.
October 18th, 2006 at at 6:15 pm
Perhaps she could bring up with the administration how the recitation is age-inappropriate for her students and offer an alternative activity (perhaps involving something patriotic without the blatant religious overtones.)
Anna, this is the biggest problem I have with this issue of having little one’s recite a pledge — that they have no understanding or idea about what it is supposed to mean. And since they have no clue about what they are saying, it is only empty indoctination.
Any public school, charter or not, is likely to have students with varying religious beliefs. Does the school have a policy for families who do not want their children exposed to religion in school? Does the school in any way support or prohibit the celebration of religious holidays in the classroom? If such a policy exists the application of it for staff could be discussed.
Depending on the religions background of the families of the students in the district, this could be productive, or it could backfire and make the non-xian or atheist the “oddball heathen” who is out to take their Jeebus away. These things are commonly considered in most school districts in the Chicagoland area where I live and adjustments and accomodations are made for student diversity.
Just say ‘wonderdog’ instead.
Caradoc- funny. I might try that one.
October 19th, 2006 at at 4:48 pm
The problem you wife is having started the day she took the job. As many a “closeted” person discovers, hiding your beliefs creates problems. If your wife knew about the pledge thing as she was taking the job, she should have brought it up then. Maybe she doesn’t get the job, but she hasn’t created a harder situation for herself. If she found out afterward, she should have addressed it, not dodged it. Now, she’s in deep and trying to find a way out. –end lecture–
Yes, I know you realize all that stuff, but it bears saying.
The reason I bothered is because it leaves you in the position to get advice like you’ve been getting. Some of which is of the pick your battles variety. Here’s my problem with that. I do understand that you can’t win every fight, BUT if it involves your core principles, you have to try. If you’re not willing to stand up for your beliefs why bother believing anything?
The whole idea of this isn’t worth fighting is also the reason we now need to fight the “under god” clause in the pledge and remove “IN GOD WE TRUST” from money. At the time, no one thought it was worth fighting about. And the theists erode one more tiny piece of religious freedom.
I know this isn’t really advice. On the advice front, I agree that you should consult a civil rights lawyer. And talk to the boss. And if that doesn’t
October 19th, 2006 at at 7:09 pm
Glintir, the reason why I argued that it is not a battle worth fighing is because it cannot be won. Atheists and agnostics are less than 10% of the population. The moderate religious middle will side with the fundies because “those damned atheists are trying to erase god from our culture blah blah blah.”
The battles we should be fighting now include the ones mentioned in my blog posting, such as defending reproductive freedom and access to birth control, opposing discrimination of gays, defeating attempts by the religious right to replace or complement the teaching of evolution in public schools with intelligent design. These are also battles where we can be on the side of the majority and have a good chance of winning.
Atheists can win battles when they fight for issues that have sufficient support from the majority. We have less chances of success trying to remove “In God We Trust” from our currency. Of course, this is all just my opinion.
October 19th, 2006 at at 8:40 pm
Glintir, the reason why I argued that it is not a battle worth fighing is because it cannot be won. Atheists and agnostics are less than 10% of the population. The moderate religious middle will side with the fundies because “those damned atheists are trying to erase god from our culture blah blah blah.”
The battles we should be fighting now include the ones mentioned in my blog posting, such as defending reproductive freedom and access to birth control, opposing discrimination of gays, defeating attempts by the religious right to replace or complement the teaching of evolution in public schools with intelligent design. These are also battles where we can be on the side of the majority and have a good chance of winning.
Atheists can win battles when they fight for issues that have sufficient support from the majority. We have less chances of success trying to remove “In God We Trust” from our currency. Of course, this is all just my opinion.
Glintir and TommyKey…
The only choice for the wife is to follow her principles(?) and refuse to say the pledge of allegience so that she can be exposed as a subversive athiest. Tell her to be honest about her hatred for the people who’s children she is attempting to teach, and her attempts to subvert Christian teachings…….That way, she can start her new job at Walmart, almost immediately….
By doing this, the transition from unfit teacher to Walmart employee can be seamless. Please don’t let her be a convictionless wimp…Let her say, “I hate Christ!”
October 19th, 2006 at at 10:00 pm
Troll! Troll! Troll in the dungeon! Thought you’d like to know.”
October 20th, 2006 at at 1:39 am
Just to say that some of us ‘religious’ people are with you on:
‘…defending reproductive freedom and access to birth control, opposing discrimination of gays, defeating attempts by the religious right to replace or complement the teaching of evolution in public schools with intelligent design.’
Interesting discussion.
October 20th, 2006 at at 10:03 am
I agree with Bruce. Preschoolers pledging their allegiance to a country is completely inappropriate. They don’t have a clue what they’re talking about, and would just as quickly pledge allegiance to Hitler.
Rejecting the pledge on these grounds seems like it would be easier do (not to mention that it’s the most offensive part). You’d probably be able to muster more sympathy from the community than if they could simply label her an ‘atheist’.
Maybe she could speak with other teachers who she thinks might feel similarly (if she knows them well enough yet) and that way she could bring it up and know that she has some support in the schools.
October 20th, 2006 at at 10:14 am
Thanks ST!
October 20th, 2006 at at 11:15 am
The only choice for the wife is to follow her principles(?) and refuse to say the pledge of allegience so that she can be exposed as a subversive athiest. Tell her to be honest about her hatred for the people who’s children she is attempting to teach, and her attempts to subvert Christian teachings…….That way, she can start her new job at Walmart, almost immediately….
I know I should not feed the trolls…however, I must say that Xian trolls are so quick to talk about hatred …it’s the first thing that comes to their mind. Why is that? hmmmm…
Could it be because they are indoctrinated liars who started being brainwashed with mythological bullcrap lies as preschoolers?
October 21st, 2006 at at 12:20 pm
Personally I disagree with saying the pledge of allegiance all together; something about it just seems totalitarian–it’s something that you would expect from North Korea or the old Soviet Union, not from a free nation. However, as to your wife’s dellimna, it seems like a matter of priority. Which is more important to her, keeping her job as a teacher or sticking to her principals–in other words does she lean more toward pragmatism or idealism? In either case the choice is ultimately up to her, as is ultimately always the case. Good luck.
October 21st, 2006 at at 7:35 pm
Hi everybody. I have been evesdropping on this website for a long time without ever participating in any discussions. Naughty me!
As in all cases, your wife should be truthful to herself, just as all of us should be. If you and your wife wishes to recite the pledge using the original words, then by all means do so any timereciting the pledge is required.
She should write the words on the chalkboard and say them for the pre-schoolers. That helps them to learn to read. Then she should explain that she does not say the words, “under god” because she does not worship a god, but that if the children who do believe in a god want to, they can say those words. The class can then recite the pledge with “under god”, and then again without the words. While reciting the pledge, the teacher can point at the words on the chalkboard. This helps children to learn to read, which is the WHOLE POINT OF GOING TO SCHOOL.
The “learning to read” thing is not intended as a deception. That part, of course, never needs to be explained in class.
If, for any reason, your wife is persecuted for her actions, the issue must be dealt with. The fact that a trial and all the negative attention would be difficult should not stop you. Let me shamelessly use shame on you a little bit here…just as christians do to force religion down the throats of those churchgoers who express doubt…
At the top of your website are the words, “Helping humanity overcome religion.” Why are those words there, if the moment something becomes difficult, you turn to deception, or try to find a way to tapdance around religious persecution?
I hope that does not come across to you in a bad way. I really would prefer that this all comes out clean and easy for you and your wife.
I also think that this entire subject is a ruse to bring people out to discuss the issue, which in itself is a good thing.
There is no such thing as luck, by the way.
Thanks for the nice website and I wish you well.
Jeromy in AZ
October 21st, 2006 at at 9:59 pm
I haven’t read through all of the posts yet, so forgive me if I’m redundant.
I suggest being very straightforward. Teach the official version. Then explain that there is a controversy over whether or not our Pledge of Allegiance should include a proclamation concerning gods, and that if anybody doesn’t believe in gods, they are under no obligation to say “under God”. And suggest that they speak with their parents if they are unsure whether or not they should say it.
I don’t think she’d need to complicate matters (so soon) by explaining that she won’t be saying “under God”, since it will most likely be noticed anyway, but I would certainly understand if she felt she should.
October 22nd, 2006 at at 8:50 am
I suggest being very straightforward. Teach the official version. Then explain that there is a controversy over whether or not our Pledge of Allegiance should include a proclamation concerning gods, and that if anybody doesn’t believe in gods, they are under no obligation to say “under God”. And suggest that they speak with their parents if they are unsure whether or not they should say it.
Chris, as some of us have stated, these are preschoolers (ages 3-5) who won’t know what the heck a teacher is talking about if confronted with this kind of controversy. They have no clue what the word means. Also, the biggest “controversy” in their lives concerns why they can’t have cookies for dinner and why they have to share the crayon box with their little friends, etc.
October 22nd, 2006 at at 4:24 pm
Glintir, the reason why I argued that it is not a battle worth fighing is because it cannot be won.
Okay, first I want to clarify something, I’m not really talking about his wife winning or losing “the battle of the pledge”. This is simply one place she needs to make a choice. And what I was getting at, and you’re missing, is that the “battle” begins at moment one. By waiting until the issue was forced, she left herself with few options. If she had addressed it up front, she would have more room to work now. To continue to use the battle analogy, she let the opposition get the better ground by refusing to set the field herself.
That said, At this point she may well need to compromise her principles. But that doesn’t mean that at least trying to put a fight isn’t worth it. Let’s be honest, expressing her opinion and making a fuss won’t get her fired. Refusing to back down at all might. So, she makes her point, makes her stand, lays out the alternatives, and falls back if she needs to. That’s my opinion. (Which I failed to make, by hitting post too early.. sorry).
As for not fighting pointless battles, if you NEVER fight pointless battles you lose ground. I’m not saying be a martyr every time you can, but sometimes, if it’s important enough, you fight when you know you’ll lose. Take a look at whichever Senator it was that tried to impeach Bush. He did it not because he’d win but because he wanted it on record. HE wanted to say he’d tried. He hadn’t just rolled over. And it’s not like he has to give up all other options and causes because he took up this one.
I don’t know. Perhaps I’m Quixotic. But I’ve comprimised my principles enough in my life through fear.. of failure.. of confrontation.. of ridicule.. that I won’t do it anymore. Without what I believe in, what am I?
Not much I’m afraid.
October 22nd, 2006 at at 4:35 pm
By doing this, the transition from unfit teacher to Walmart employee can be seamless. Please don’t let her be a convictionless wimp…Let her say, “I hate Christ!”
A) Getting fired as a teacher make you a WalMart employee? Wow, I didn’t know get fired invalidated degrees.
B) If she gets fired as quickly as you’re making it out to be, then the lawsuit looks to pay off nicely. Meaning the WalMart job is just to kill time.
C) If you’ve got a brain, you can avoid being fired in a situation like this.
October 23rd, 2006 at at 5:32 pm
I suggest a lesson on the origins of the Declaration. I believe it was written by a Communist Party Member as an oath of allegiance to the State, and for 40 years did not include a mention of any deity.
October 24th, 2006 at at 4:49 pm
[…] I AM over at The Evangelical Atheist has had an unfortunate dilemma forced upon he and his family over the Pledge of Mindlessness, er, Allegiance. […]
October 25th, 2006 at at 10:12 am
Boy i bet you wish you could have something happen in your insignificant nothing little life that would warrant a call to the ACLU. Your wife should either suck it up, or get into a different occupation. And to tommykey, who is going to make his child omit the words ‘under god’ during his turn to lead the class; You are no better that someone who baptizes a baby. You are going to single your child out and subject him to the spitefulness of his little friends all so that YOUR beliefs aren’t infringed upon. Are you worried you will be kicked out of your local atheist group just because you let your little child say the word ‘god’?? You should be ashamed. Explain it to him/her let them decide. If he/she isn’t old enough to decide then what makes you think they are old enough to stand up for what YOU believe in in the face of their peers?? I am no zealot but you people make me sick. Atheism is becoming a religion of it’s own, right down to the persecution of others and the lobbying to take away the rights of others to pursue their religious beliefs; just like the churches/synagogues/mosques etc. do. gag!!
October 25th, 2006 at at 10:26 pm
jim
What an angry, angry person you seem to be. Sucking it up or finding another job are the only two options you can think of? Where would this country be today if our founding fathers and those with vision and determination to make things better had taken that attitude? Tommykey is going to show his child that it is okay to be different…that he doesn’t have to be one of the sheeple. My husband and I raised our children to not be afraid to be different or have differences of thoughts and opinions. They are now strong adults with positive attitudes and optimistic that they can make a difference and stand up for what they know is right even if that makes them unpopular sometimes. That’s how new ideas come about…INDEPENDENT THOUGHT, not by being a lemming. You say you are not a zealot, yet you sound like a zealot…and an angry one at that! You seem angry because some atheists dare to speak up, dare to uphold the separation of church and state and for trying to restore the pledge to it’s secular content. It’s not the atheist who wants to take religious beliefs away from people. The atheist just wants to prevent religious zealots from imposing their beliefs on the rest of our SECULAR society and government. It’s complacent people like yourself that is the real problem and hinders progress.
October 27th, 2006 at at 9:25 am
I never attended a preschool, so I’m not quite sure how they function academically. If there is any form of homework involved, she could ask her students to ask their parents what the Pledge is. Subsequently, she could have a different student each day lead the class in recitation of the aforementioned mindless oath of faith.
You know, for a bunch of self avowed atheists, you sure come off as funadamentalist religionists, except that the god you worship is yourself and all religious people are heretics. You are worse than the holy rollers that ran around knocking the privates off of classical sculptures centuries ago. Tell you what, while we are trying to censor and eliminate the word god in every form from human language, let’s go out and scratch through the word or image in every book, poem, or art work of any kind from every period of history.
Oh, and let’s not forget all the other words that describe or are used for god in every language. Logos is a good example. God is called “the Word” so let’s also refuse to say the word “word”, oh, but logos can also be translated as “reason”, so we better eliminate “reason” from our vocabularies as well.
Better yet, let’s have a huge bondfire and burn every religious book, masterpiece, or symbol that could possibly offend a non-believer. That will show them how correct and important science and intellecualism is and how irrational and ignorant religion is.
Are you likewise going to deny or ignore any and every mathematical or scientific discovery made by a Christian? I mean get a grip. You fear religious indoctrination, but turn around and want to indoctrinate everyone into atheism. You are as much a religionist as Jerry Falwell, Gandhi or the Pope.
Who cares if the word “god” is in there. If you don’t believe in God then why fear Him so much? If there really is no God, then the word has no power or meaning. Did you recite the Pledge of Allegiance as a child? Did it prevent you from becoming an atheist? If the author wrote it that way, leave it. If your wife doesn’t like it, tell her to quit.
October 27th, 2006 at at 10:10 am
I’d just like to apologise on behalf of the liberal, chattering classes everywhere (Christian or otherwise) for the singular lack of respect this discussion has generated. Back at the beginning someone asked a reasonable question to stimulate discussion and get advice. Now it feels as if people are virtually throwing things. Let’s step back, breathe deeply, be slow to anger (as it says in the Bible) and see if we can work out how we can all be happy together.
October 27th, 2006 at at 10:51 am
You are ridiculous Casca. Get a grip.
No one here is talking about censoring or eliminating references to god or ignoring scientific or medical discoveries by people who were also Christian.
What we are talking about is how we as atheists conduct ourselves in a society where the majority is Christian. How are any of us here indoctrinating people into atheism? We’re just a group of ordinary people who communicate with each other on this blog, and you make us out like we’re some kind of evil cabal trying to take away people’s religious beliefs.
And Jim, what vitriol. And I thought I was one of the moderate voices on this topic. First off, for all I know, my son does say “under God” when he recites the pledge in class. I am not there to hear it. And if he does omit it, then I seriously doubt his classmates will tease him for it. I merely omit it when I practice it with him at home on rare occasions. What he does in class is up to him.
But you seem to believe that people should always engage in mindless conformism just for the sake of fitting in and not rocking the boat.
Atheism is not a religion you blockhead, it is simply a disbelief that some divine entity popularly known as God created the universe. It’s really funny that on the one hand, Christians always like to mock atheists as being so few in number, and then they turn around and cry that we are trying to destroy religion because of how powerful we are.
October 27th, 2006 at at 11:34 am
> If the author wrote it that way, leave it.
The author didn’t write it that way; it was changed in the fifites to add “under God”. If you want us to say it as the author wrote it, then there is no problem (except perhaps for turning pre-schoolers into thoughtless ‘Patriots’, but that is not a religious issue).
> If your wife doesn’t like it, tell her to quit.
If this job is provided by the government, as it seems to be, then she shouldn’t be required to quit. Our government is not allowed to promote a religion even voluntarily, much less fire any employee who doesn’t belong to the state religion. If our government violates the rules set forth in its founding document, then it has no legitimacy. It has only power by threat of violence, and deserves no respect.
October 27th, 2006 at at 12:38 pm
‘Tommykey’, you been in a pre-school/kindergarten class lately?? Didn’t think so. and ‘Casca’, thanks for making a more intelligible argument than i could muster at that moment… I was so shaken by ~i am~ threatening to give the ACLU another reason to take away the rights of the masses at the beckoning of a few extraneous individuals. (see Habersham & Burrow cty’s. GA, Frankfort KY statehouse etc. etc.), Oh and ”Indifferent children’ i have a suggestion for you EMIGRATE!
October 27th, 2006 at at 1:50 pm
Jim - as much as you want to deny it, this country was founded on separation of church and state. If you want your kids to have religious brainwashing, then you are free to do just that in your private religious schools.
As for myself and many others who value the principles this country was founded on, as well as the Constitution of this great land, I would like to see the Pledge of Allegiance restored to it’s original text.
October 27th, 2006 at at 2:18 pm
Of course I know that kids get made fun of in kindergarten and elementary school you blockhead! Thank you for being so concerned about my son’s welfare, but as flawed as I am, I think I am doing a pretty good job.
Again, I will repeat what I wrote in my last post:
What we are talking about is how we as atheists conduct ourselves in a society where the majority is Christian. How are any of us here indoctrinating people into atheism? We’re just a group of ordinary people who communicate with each other on this blog, and you make us out like we’re some kind of evil cabal trying to take away people’s religious beliefs.
It’s really sad that Christians get all bent out of shape because atheists communicate our thoughts to each other on a blog, as if the simple act of doing so is tantamount to a threat to religious belief.
October 27th, 2006 at at 2:33 pm
stardust, i think you missed the point. Not sure when i denied this country’s founding principles, or stated that i wished for my children to be brainwashed. I think your zeal caused you to see that in what i said. Seems like most people on this site see only that^^^ in anything even remotely sane anyone adds to this thread. I am not religious as a said before, and i do believe it is a little silly to have changed the words of the pledge (although i can comprehend why it was done). People on this site refer to it as the pledge of “mindlessness.” and Accuse others of being “conformist.” Are we supposed to agree with nothing anyone says, and have no sense of nationalism just to spite the establishment? Sounds like you people are so bitter about the PAST doings of the church (who’s hands are “tied” behind their back with respect to the influence they can legally have) that you wont even for a minute stop to think that some regulation and conformity is positive??? I believe the pledge should be restored to it’s original condition as well, however i do not believe that a 5 year old should have to stand up for it when he/she has no ability to do so. Further i do not believe that atheists will make that happen by trying to eradicate religion. You will only serve to strengthen the resolve of the bible bashers and unite them (at the same time creating ‘victims’ out of them). The same way our actions in Iraq and the middle east have strengthened the resolve of the Muslim Horde. Soon your beloved ACLU will have to live up to it’s stated mission and start protecting the rights of even religious people who are being denied their freedom of religion. Wouldn’t that make heads explode. Did you know that the line of the constitution which reads “…and we hold these truths to be self-evident” was originally slated to refer to said truths as god given? We can thank Thomas Jefferson for that one. This is a classic example of the true existence of separation of church and state. And with but very few exceptions (e.g. TWO words of the pledge), the Atheist papacy really has nothing to bitch about. Especially if you compare the USA to other countries. If you wish to stand on the fact that this country is founded on the separation of church and state, then you must recognize it’s existence. It’s a real bummer when you have to face it and I’m sure the dulling effect it has on your collective teeth makes it a real conversation killer. So in order to have some kind of validation (something to complain about) people on this site must sensationalize everything and take it as a personal persecution when someone in the world chooses to believe in something. Face that fact and calm down, Or EMIGRATE!
October 27th, 2006 at at 2:40 pm
tommykey, you are stupid and should be banned from the keyboard. I qoute:
“It’s really sad that Christians get all bent out of shape because atheists communicate our thoughts to each other on a blog, as if the simple act of doing so is tantamount to a threat to religious belief.”
take a look at your motto “helping mankind overcome religion.” Let’s put that in a different context; i wish i could remember the exact scripture from the 2nd crusade but i cant right now. It was strikingly similar “..helping civilization overcome the Muslim threat…” Do you still see ‘helping mankind overcome religion’ as so benign? Well as a result of your own ‘brainwashing,’ you probably do. I don’t.
October 27th, 2006 at at 3:47 pm
First off knucklehead, I am a guest here. This is not my blog. And secondly, so what if I AM subtitles his blog “Helping Mankind Overcome Religion”? Why does that threaten you? I am sure there are many Christian blogs that read “Helping to spread Christ’s truth to the world” or similar slogans along that line. If they want to say that, what the heck do I care?
And you are a guest here too jim. You’re like the asshole uncle who ruins every family gathering by getting drunk and pissing on the roses in the backyard or cursing at someone at the dinner table. Take your own advice and emigrate the fuck out of this blog if you don’t like us! I am through with you at any rate.
October 27th, 2006 at at 3:54 pm
You are ridiculous Casca. Get a grip.
No one here is talking about censoring or eliminating references to god or ignoring scientific or medical discoveries by people who were also Christian.
Resorting to name calling is a very intellectual thing to do. In fact on this site and others I have read, self-proclaimed atheists respond with brilliant insights, such as “christians are stupid”. Many of the above comments suggest that I am’s wife say it and then try to tell the kids why they should not say it, or suggest inserting some “subversive” material into other parts of the class. Also, it seems that some of you are so filled with hate for a god you do not believe in that you can’t even spell the word god.
Apparently you conduct yourselves poorly, or at least as hypocritically as many of the religionist you like to complain about. Re-read the posts. Atheism is not in and of itself evil any more than religion is in and of itself evil. And if it were up to you, you would take away peoples right to public religious expression, while preserving your right to it - if not you specifically, then others on this thread and on threads like it.
…
One definition of religion is this: “a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith”. By this definition, it could very well be considered a “religion” however displeasing that terminology might be to you, and perhaps to those that profess some other religion. No one is claiming any such power for you. Faith can’t be taken away, but can only be disowned. I have no problem with you being atheist and not believing in God. What I do have a problem with is the snobbery and faux elitism expressed by so many of you in your taunts, insults, and generalisations about the mental capacities of religious people.
October 27th, 2006 at at 4:17 pm
Oh please Caca. I wrote that you were ridiculous. That hardly qualifies as calling you names. But it accurately reflects the hysterical tone of your arguments. I did not call anybody stupid, but I did call Jim a blockhead and a knucklehead because I don’t care for his vitriolic tone.
There are many religious people in the world who are undoubtedly way smarter than I. I am sure that a Bible believing Christian who also happens to be a heart surgeon is much more intelligent than I am, especially when it comes to performing heart surgery. But if that same heart surgeon is going to tell me that I am going to burn in hell for all eternity if I do not accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, I am not going to be like “Well, you’re a heart surgeon and you are smarter than me, so I must by bow to your superior intelligence and become a Christian.”
I find it rather interesting that you and Jim are directing your strongest criticism towards me when I am probably among the most moderate voices posting here. Rather than being confrontational over issues like the pledge by filing law suits like Michael Newdow, I have taken a position of finding a way to accomodate ones personal beliefs while respecting the majority’s belief. What is so terrible about that? Maybe because you feel more threatened by moderate and reasonable atheists?
You don’t like our “snobbery and faux elitism” Casca? Well gee, I don’t recall anybody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to visit this blog. Don’t visit atheist blogs and you won’t have to be annoyed by us.
October 27th, 2006 at at 4:18 pm
Sorry for the spelling error. OF course I meant Casca. I’m not Senator George Allen of Virginia you know.
October 27th, 2006 at at 5:00 pm
jim wrote: “I believe the pledge should be restored to it’s original condition as well, however i do not believe that a 5 year old should have to stand up for it when he/she has no ability to do so.”
jim - And most people here hold the opinion that a 5-year-old (preschoolers are 3-5) should not be indoctrinated with a political pledge when they don’t even know what the hell it means.
To get back on track, the question was how I AM’s wife should handle the saying of this pledge when it #1 contains words that she will not be sincere about when saying them (especially to a roomful of young developing minds), and #2 having the words “under god” in the pledge of our secular nation clearly violates the separation of church and state. Too many people are complacent and don’t even think about the words they say in these patriotic “liturgies.” To just “suck it up” and go with the flow…”don’t rock the boat” is not being true to oneself. They changed the pledge once by a lot of noisemaking, they can change it back again with a lot of noisemaking.
October 27th, 2006 at at 5:03 pm
I am no zealot but you people make me sick.
jim…if you are no zealot, and people here make you sick…why are you still here?:roll:
October 27th, 2006 at at 5:07 pm
I dispise this discussion. It’s so sad that we have to keep having this over and over. It’s a brainwashing pledge that had christian brainwashing added for political gain.
I’m sorry you are facing this in your family. I hope that it works out for you, and if you decide to fight you have my backing. I would gladly donate financially to your legal defense fund. This is crap.
Ian
October 27th, 2006 at at 8:28 pm
And the TKO! Nice work Casca! It’s been a great ‘intelletcual’ discussion but i think i will take tommys advice and Emigrate. I believe in leading by example.
Tasteless Joke of the day…
Q: What do you get when you have a dyslexic athiest?
A: Someone who runs around trying to convince everyone that there is no dog.
October 27th, 2006 at at 8:53 pm
Hey, I Am, if you ever feel like giving us an update, we’d all be quite delighted.
October 27th, 2006 at at 9:07 pm
Also casca if you can forgive the bad joke shoot me an email. I got a few Questions for you. thanks
casca.10.hxadecmel@spamgourmet.com
October 28th, 2006 at at 9:26 am
To take Jim’s argument even further, if my family lived in a small town where everybody went to church, then according to Jim’s line of reasoning, even though I am an atheist, my family and I should attend church every Sunday because otherwise the rest of the townfolk might ridicule or despise us.
October 28th, 2006 at at 3:02 pm
To take Jim’s argument even further, if my family lived in a small town where everybody went to church, then according to Jim’s line of reasoning, even though I am an atheist, my family and I should attend church every Sunday because otherwise the rest of the townfolk might ridicule or despise us.
Tommykey - that’s an excellent analogy. “Don’t rock the boat” or “go with the flow” is a cowardly way to live. There are times we do go along with things, but there are other times we need to speak up and make our voices and opinions heard.
October 28th, 2006 at at 7:44 pm
:?Hi “I AM!”
I regret that in our American society persons in your wife’s situation face the issue of having preschoolers recite the “Pledge of Alligiance” - either with or without “god” in it. I am thinking that at the moment your wife heard some administrator/supervisor of the school indicate the pledge must be recited by her preschool students, that was the point to challenge such a curriculum. I am wondering what patterns of thinking the curriculum committee decided preschoolers might have an opportunity to develop from reciting that “pledge?” I am wondering if your wife has asked such a question of the curriculum committee that developed the requirement to recite the pledge? I am wondering if reciting the “pledge” is, indeed, stated in writing as part of the school’s curriculum? If it is, and if your wife agreed to promote that curriculum, then she is violating her acceptance of the position if she refuses to follow the curriculum - isn’t she? Of course, if that “pledge” is not included in writing in the curriculum description, then she would not be violating her acceptance of the curriculum. If some administrator/supervisor is personally “addiing” to the curriculum without the approval of the curriculum committee, I am thinking it might be desirable to bring that to the attention of the curriculum committee. If I were in your wife’s position, to avoid a charge of “insubordination,” I think I would do as someone suggested in an earlier message - have the administrator/supervisor provide a copy of the “official pledge,” duplicate it for each child to take home and to seek his or her parents/guardians assistance in learning it, then provide an opportunity in class for the children to recite the pledge. At the same time, I would submit written questions to the curriculum committee - lots of them - regarding the educational objectives of requring preshcoolers to recite that “pledge” - I would circulate articles and news releases and website addresses to the curriculum committee regarding the “pros” and “cons” of requiring preschoolers to recite that “pledge.” In addition I think I would consult with the local EEO/EEOC officer as someone suggested earlier. Also contact the local ACLU office. Also I would do whatever else I could do or say to increase the chances of getting such a requirement removed from the curriculum at that school including using the PTA and local school board - and don’t forget to contact your State Representative’s office and your Congressional Representative’s office as well as your Senator’s office regarding this situation. Yes, you might lose your job - temporarily - but doesn’t your wife want to take such actions to increase the chances of making such a change? Hhhmmm… and for sure I and others participating in this forum might investigate the curriculum of our own local schools and do our part to increase the chances that students attending our local schools are not being required to reciter that “pledge?” An “intelligent design” curriculum initiative was just defeated in one of our county school disctricts by the action of some citizens. All of us can do our part to increase the spread of freedom - to increase critical thinking by all citizens.
Is that from Descartes or “Jahweh?”
Thanks for sharing!
October 29th, 2006 at at 2:02 pm
How about just say the pledge and get over yourself. I mean that in a kind way. Even though I am a believer in Jesus Christ and believe that the Christian worldview is the only one that makes sense, on the other hand my allegiance is not to a flag or country either. In some ways we agree. The general “God” of the pledge is not the one who exists in actuality.
But still, when we are at work, whatever our work, there are generally some hoops to jump through to make it through the day. If you want it to be just like you want it to be, then you would have to start your own school and hire exclusively atheist teachers. If you want to influence others with your philosophical position (which did I mention seems to me to be totally illogical), then it is usually best to do so one-on-one, a person at a time.
October 29th, 2006 at at 6:17 pm
The general “God” of the pledge is not the one who exists in actuality.
Sorry…but in ACTUALITY, god, gods, and goddesses exist only in imagination and fantasies of your own mind.
If you want to influence others with your philosophical position (which did I mention seems to me to be totally illogical
No matter what atheist site I visit, xians cannot make one damn comment without bringing their proseltyzing into it.
then it is usually best to do so one-on-one, a person at a time.
Then why do xians need megachurches, televisions stations and mass revivals?
October 30th, 2006 at at 8:12 am
> you would have to start your own school and hire exclusively atheist teachers
Actually, all that we need are schools that don’t teach any religion, then our teachers can be of any (or no) faith. I have yet to see proof that a Christian can’t teach math or reading.
October 30th, 2006 at at 12:12 pm
“Actually, all that we need are schools that don’t teach any religion, then our teachers can be of any (or no) faith. I have yet to see proof that a Christian can’t teach math or reading.”
Agreed. It is up to believing parents and the Church of Jesus Christ (not a school system) to train its children in truth. However, many things are removed from public schools as religious when in fact they are historical. Study of the history of the Bible, for example, must be done in order to provide a context for understanding many cultures, including Western culture.
October 30th, 2006 at at 1:04 pm
Conversely Dollar, the Bible must be examined through the lens of history, rather than viewing history through the lens of the Bible.
Bible believers get the mistaken impression that the Hebrews were at the center of everything important going on in the Middle East during the time frame of the Old Testament. But the truth is that the Hebrews and the OT made very little impact. The Egyptians and the successive states of Mesopotamia were where the real influence lay in terms of the development of writing, the spread of civilization, religion and so forth. For most of their history, the Hebrews, a confederation of semi-nomadic tribes, were conquered by their neighbors, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians, Alexander the Great etcetera.
The Bible itself does not matter in the history of Europe until Christians in the Roman Empire reached a critical enough mass so that Christianity became the official religion of the empire. Before that, the Romans managed to achieve certain things, ya know, like aqueducts to bring drinking water to Rome, well paved roads to con