You killed my daughter. Hey, it happens.
Perhaps you heard about the school shooting in Bailey, Colorado last week. I think a couple of channels may have mentioned it. It was certainly a topic of interest here, since that’s less than 20 miles from my house. (By the way, Columbine High School is about 45 minutes in the opposite direction, so I’ve moved to the school shooting capital of the world.) While the standoff was still going on, there was a lot of speculation about motive. As it turns out, Duane Roger Morrison sexually assaulted six girls and killed one before offing himself because his father yelled at him as a child, or some such nonsense, but we didn’t know that until the weekend. That night, I mentioned to my wife that it was probably religious in nature. She asked me why, and I told her that I always attribute violence to reiligion until I have evidence to the contrary.
Well, I was wrong, but I didn’t have long to wait for a religiously motivated school shooting. Yesterday, another lunatic went into an Amish schoolhouse with a gun, resulting in six fatalities, including the lunatic in question. It is believed that the attack occured because the shooter was “angry at god” because he had lost a daughter a few years ago. So, to get back at the almighty, he took the daughters from five other families. Logical.
This post is not about the religiously motivated killing. It’s about the response that I find, in many ways, even more upsetting and indicative of some of the more easily forgotten problems with religion. In an article on MSNBC, I just read that the mother of one of the victims “holds no ill will toward the shooter.” “Even last night, there was no anger toward the shooter.” Why? Christ. A possibly mythical figure from 2,000 years ago told her she shouldn’t be angry at the man who killed her daughter. Now, I’m no therapist, but that anger is there. She’s simply not allowing herself to express it, and it will eat away at her until she does. This means that she has to suffer even MORE than she would have because of some Judean hippie from antiquity and his denial of human nature. At least she’ll go to heaven.
By the way, do you think they have phones in heaven? They sure don’t have them at the Amish schoolhouse. If someone hadn’t had to “run to a farmhouse to call police,” maybe things would have worked out better. Maybe not, but it certainly couldn’t have hurt. I bet they also have planes in heaven, but they don’t have them in Lancaster. The families of the victims who didn’t die on the scene found it more important to avoid big scary machines in the name of their religion than to be at their daughters’ sides during the most difficult hours of their lives. They had to be driven to the hospitals, and some of them wound up at the wrong ones for a while.
So, it’s awful that some nutjob killed five young girls because he’s angry at god, but it’s unconscionable that the families let a fairytale stand between them and their duty to their children and that their faith causes them to outwardly deny the anger that is rightfully theirs, preventing them from really dealing with it. It’s easy to find religious violence and talk about that as the downside to religion, but it’s certainly not the only one.
~I AM~
October 3rd, 2006 at at 12:51 pm
I agree. Anger is absolutely appropriate in a case like this. How sad that some parents feel they can’t express that anger.
As for me? I get angry just thinking about it. I’d consider the shooter lucky that he’s already dead.
October 3rd, 2006 at at 2:46 pm
I recently moved up to school from Texas (need to ask why?) to the Philadelphia area and I spend a considerable amount of time with my grandmother in nearby Lancaster on long breaks. Just this last weekend, I was there, watching Amish people park their buggies in Wal-Mart and come out with loaded carts full of moonpies and root beer. My grandmother tells me stories about how they’ll use their neighbors’ fridges, carry cell phones, and take cars to see their wares at the flea market, but yet their morally oppoosed to zippers, deodorant, land lines and driving cars?
If anyone thinks evangelicals are insane, they need only to meet an Amish person. Now, granted, you’d have to be under the age of 16 or they won’t talk to you except to sell you something…
That’s some serious brainwashing those people are doing.
October 3rd, 2006 at at 4:13 pm
Ugh. Tell me about it. I signed on aol the other day to be greeted with the headline, “Three deadly school shootings this week”.
What the hell is the world coming to?
Every time I talk to my mother about the state of the world, I tell her how much I blame religion for it. It seems to me that radicals everywhere are taking over my home and there is nothing I can do about it.
I noticed in your book meme that you wish you wrote “The End of Faith”. I’ve started reading it and I haven’t agreed with a book that much since… well, ever.
I simply love this website, and your style. And seeing as I’m a sixteen year old girl from suburbian christianville, I’m really glad to finally have someone that believes everything that I do.
October 3rd, 2006 at at 4:49 pm
I simply love this website, and your style. And seeing as I’m a sixteen year old girl from suburbian christianville, I’m really glad to finally have someone that believes everything that I do.
You’ve picked up on the evil plot. We’re taking over the minds of the children.
Thanks.
October 3rd, 2006 at at 7:30 pm
Yep, violence is not the only downside to religion. It’s a disease which negatively affects the individual in addition to their interactions with others. Those family members rightfully deserve their anger, and them thinking that it’s bad to feel that way isn’t going to help them cope any. It also lessens the chances that they will use their loss as motivation to help fight the causes.
October 3rd, 2006 at at 8:15 pm
Emily,
I’m afraid you are mistaken. The Amish of the Wal-marts are Mennonites, not the true Amish. Where I live, rural SE PA, the Mennonites are more common and you’re right, They drive SUVs, and eat moon pies, but wear silly clothes and beanies. It was a game when we were younger to try to pick up the Mennonite girls when they would stop their bikes on the side of the road. We would be all like “Hey Girls, we got matches, you want a ride.”
They would freak.
good times good times.
October 3rd, 2006 at at 9:27 pm
These people were driving buggies. Do Mennonites do that too?
I’m afraid you are mistaken. The Amish of the Wal-marts are Mennonites, not the true Amish.
October 4th, 2006 at at 5:11 am
Believe it or not some do. Generally the buggy does mean Amish. But there are several sects around the area, with all kind of reforms. I’ve see mennonites in sportscars and I smoked reefer with some amish kids. it’s a crap shoot, the people you saw could have been reformed Amish for all I know. Generally the Amish are too hardcore for Wal-Mart though.
October 4th, 2006 at at 8:48 am
Regardless of all the stupid things religious people do, there’s one big argument for the non-existance of gawd. Namely, all the Catholic (apparently happenend in some protestent sects as well, but I don’t know details) priests (and in some cases nuns) who have sexually and physically abused children. Because really, these people would be in the know. If they don’t give a crap about breaking their churches and religion’s rules, then frankly I don’t think anyone else has to worry.
October 4th, 2006 at at 8:35 pm
Yeah, these stupid Christians are ruining civilization with their rejection of the concept of vengance! We need more people like you… you’re not a therapist, and you’ve never even met this woman, yet your clear and rational atheistic reason knows exactly what’s going in on in her head, what’s eating away at her, and how it’s going to be worse for her in the end. That’s SO AWESOME. Even the Christian “fairy tale” doesn’t make up those kinds of cool powers!
October 4th, 2006 at at 8:55 pm
Erik,
Maybe you’re not a parent and wouldn’t understand that anger would be an obvious result of the death of your child. Not just the death but the murder of your child. Being an atheist has nothing to do with it. Being a human means you would rail against the cause of such great a pain for your baby, yourself and your loved ones. Nothing would hurt my wife more than the loss of her child. If someone hurt the one you love as badly as they could be hurt, you wouldn’t get mad?
If that’s true, you’re nuts. Maybe you’re a good christian for whatever that means, but you’re nuts.
This woman had her baby girl tormented and shot. But she’s not mad, nope, it’s a sunny day, happy little clouds, Jesus loves me and wouldn’t give me more than I can handle. Yep, I’m fine. Sure, that coffin will be fine, it would bring out her eyes if they were open, wait wait wait wait wait, Jesus loves me and wouldn’t give me more than I can handle. He just wanted to be closer to her that’s all, its for the best she’s happy now, no more pain, not like those last few…….and therefore I’m not mad, not mad, not mad at the killer, the Murderer, that BASTARD TOOK MY BABY!!! wait wait wait wait Jesus loves me and wouldn’t give me more than I can handle. sunny day.
Yeah that’s healthy.
October 4th, 2006 at at 10:35 pm
Yeah, these stupid Christians are ruining civilization with their rejection of the concept of vengance!
Dull Blade did such a nice job replying to you that I have little to add, but there is one point I wish to accent. There is a difference between anger and vengance [sic]. I in no way stated or implied that the parents of these victims should go out and kill the gunman (though I would vote to acquit, and it’s a moot point, as he’s already dead). I simply said that the cold-blooded murder of one’s offspring could be a bit offputting, to say the least. While I personally believe there is a time and a place for vengeance [sc], I can respect the Christian position against it, as it is usually counterproductive. However, denial of a basic emotion, such as anger, is simply insane. Christianity doesn’t like anger. It’s one of the big seven, after all, and a good Christian should avoid it. Well, I think there’s a loophole if moneychangers are involved, but I could be mistaken.
Oh, one more thing. Your response sounded a bit… angry. Perhaps I’m simply confusing your heavyhanded sarcasm for emotion.
October 5th, 2006 at at 7:17 am
Yes, it’s possible that she’s just suppressing her emotions, but I think it is also possible that she truly has come to terms with it already. Belief in a blissful afterlife would make it much easier to forgive and move on. In fact, that’s probably one of the reasons why the belief developed in the first place.
Carrying around grudges and hate is only going to be a burden. Forgiveness allows people to cast off that burden and eventually find happiness again. If that mother can rid herself of hatred, then her grief for her daughter will be purer, and not distracted by bitterness.
What truly worries me is the quote at the end of this article by the Amish guy: “A funeral to us is a much more important thing than the day of birth because we believe in the hereafter. The children are better off than their survivors.”
That’s a blatant fetishization of death and denial of the real world.
October 5th, 2006 at at 8:29 pm
I don’t want to overstep my bounds and I don’t want to speak on the blatant fetishization of death and denial of the real world, but the whole premise of your first paragraph rings hollow. I’ve been thinking about this for a while but I don’t have it crystalized in my mind quite yet. I AM can probably sharpen the point, but it goes like this.
You forgive the cause of your torment because God wants you to forgive, but if God gave a shit about you in the first place and kept your baby from getting murdered, you wouldn’t need to be forgiving anybody.
Yeah, that’s about right. Noooot quite, but close.
October 5th, 2006 at at 11:25 pm
You forgive the cause of your torment because God wants you to forgive, but if God gave a shit about you in the first place and kept your baby from getting murdered, you wouldn’t need to be forgiving anybody.
The problem of evil is a bitch. No question. I’ve only seen theists and atheists talk past each other on this one because so much of it depends on four things.
1. the definition of evil
2. the convenient restrictions placed on so-called omnipotence
3. moral relativism vs. moral absolutism
4. whether one believes in predestination or free will
On point 3, a moral relativist (such as myself) is seriously limited. Since I don’t believe in capital e “Evil,” it’s tough to accuse god of it. I can call him a dick, but I can’t call him wrong. However, I only need the theist’s absolutism to make the point. If the best he can do is rely on moral relativism to make his point, I’ve got him anyway. If there is no objective morality, then a Judeo-Christian style god is impossible, or at least useless.
On point 4, this debate is much easier to have with a Calvinist. Predestination blows up every remotely compelling argument I’ve ever heard from an apologist. With the free will sects, however, it usually degenerates into something like “You just can’t understand god’s ultimate plan” or “Evil isn’t a thing that god made, it’s a choice that you make,” and the debate comes to a grinding halt.
For a rigorous (if dry) discussion of the subject, see The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
I’m not sure I did anything to sharpen your point, but it doesn’t need much sharpening. Despite all the difficulties and intricacies of the problem of evil, it’s almost certainly the number one reason people leave their faiths, which indicates an intuitive understanding of the issue by those who can’t or don’t care to pick apart the finer threads of reason.
October 8th, 2006 at at 6:26 pm
It baffles me how we as a society still allow these religious groups to inflict upon children the lies that they hand out. It’s severe, it has a life long impact on them, it is untruthful, and leaves them unprepared for life.
It may sound extreme, but you would take a child from a home where they were doing crack… why not take the child from the home where they lie to them about the nature of the universe and the world they live in?
October 11th, 2006 at at 9:36 pm
Amish girl tries to speak up about being raped, has all teeth pulled out as punishment.
Yeah, the Amish are a great bunch. Quilts, barn raisings, incest…
October 12th, 2006 at at 12:06 pm
On thing I like about atheists is that they are often very interested in intellectual honesty and reason. So, I hope you don’t mind if I point out some very clear falacies in your statements…
[quote]That night, I mentioned to my wife that it was probably religious in nature. She asked me why, and I told her that I always attribute violence to reiligion until I have evidence to the contrary.
[/quote]
I don’t understand how any intelligent person can resonably believe that religion is the CAUSE of violence. It seems obvious that it’s often a SUBJECT but rarely a CAUSE.
Most wars are about border disputes. If I follow I AM’s line of reasoning the cause of war is borders. If we get rid of borders then we won’t have any wars. Simplistic, huh?
Moreover, some of the great monsters of human history–Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot were confirmed atheists. They weren’t religious yet they were horrifically violent.
It seems obvious that the problem with people like Lenin, Stalin or Pol Pot is that they were egotistical, selfish, greedy, and merciless. These are all characteristics that almost all religions decry. I know few religions that advocate greed or selfishness or anger.
[quote]Now, I’m no therapist, but that anger is there. She’s simply not allowing herself to xpress it, and it will eat away at her until she does.[/quote]
How should she “express” her anger? Kick some chairs and scream? Anger is expressed in violence and hostility. Maybe this the cause of violence in the world. People shoot and kill other because they are angry.
The Columbine trench coat mafia didn’t believe in God. They were atheists. They even killed one student because she said she believed in God. Why did they do this? Because they were angry.
There are many documented cases of people who have genuinely forgiven someone who has killed their child. I know of one story where a mother who lost her only son was able to forgive the killer, befriend him, and visit him in prison regularly. Yes, and all because of the mythical “judean hippie” from antiquity.
October 24th, 2006 at at 10:26 am
The Columbine trench coat mafia didn’t believe in God. They were atheists. They even killed one student because she said she believed in God. Why did they do this? Because they were angry.
This has been clearly shown as nothing but Christo-urban myth!
October 27th, 2006 at at 11:10 am
It baffles me how we as a society still allow these religious groups to inflict upon children the lies that they hand out. It’s severe, it has a life long impact on them, it is untruthful, and leaves them unprepared for life.
It may sound extreme, but you would take a child from a home where they were doing crack… why not take the child from the home where they lie to them about the nature of the universe and the world they live in?
Unbelievable. Now religion is crack. I would venture to say that throughout history, religion has done more for the preservation and advancement of man and humanity than any atheistic worldview has, and there have been “atheists” for as long as there have been religions. In fact, in any society that has tried to supplant religion with rationalist atheist social constructs has met with dismal failure.
You like to talk about the separation of church and state, then turn around and lament that the government doesn’t rip children away from religious parents and raise them in some faux utopian societal education camp. Well you are precisely the REASON for the separation of church and state -to prevent some power hungry, pseudo intellectual, self-aggrandizing fascist from establishing his own state religion, whether that be atheism or any other religion. The purpose was to protect the freedom of religion, not to protect the government from having religious members. In fact, the Constitution pre-supposed a public morality motivated by religiosity, though not of any particular stripe.
Further more, what is the lie? The idea of a Creative Intelligence is no less tenable than the notion of the Big Bang or whatever the human explanation de’rigeur for the origin of the universe is. Many if not most hard scientists confess to leaning more and more toward the idea of Creative Intelligence, even if they do not have more dogmatic religious beliefs.