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	<title>Comments on: Apologetics: The Argument from Miracles</title>
	<link>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/</link>
	<description>Helping Mankind Overcome Religion</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 05:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Daylight Atheism &#62; Popular Delusions III: Faith Healing</title>
		<link>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/#comment-9082</link>
		<dc:creator>Daylight Atheism &#62; Popular Delusions III: Faith Healing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 02:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/#comment-9082</guid>
		<description>[...] Despite their failures, at least these studies do no real harm: the participants always receive competent medical attention along with their ineffective dose of prayer, and no one is convinced to forsake their doctor's care. The same is not true of faith-healing revivals, where evangelists deceive supplicants into believing their ailments have been cured, often encouraging attendees to abandon traditional medical care in the process and causing them to suffer terribly or even die as a result. One particularly horrifying case: Helen Sullivan could walk only with a back brace, due to the cancer that had weakened the bones of her spinal cord. But when faith healer Kathryn Kuhlman told her that her cancer was cured, Sullivan threw off her back brace and ran across the stage several times as the audience applauded and Kuhlman praised the Lord. For the rest of the evening, Sullivan felt no pain, but by early morning, the pain had returned, only more intense than before. Without the support of her brace, one of her vertebrae had collapsed. Two months later, Sullivan was dead of the cancer that Kuhlman had "cured" her of. [...]</description>
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<p>[&#8230;] Despite their failures, at least these studies do no real harm: the participants always receive competent medical attention along with their ineffective dose of prayer, and no one is convinced to forsake their doctor&#8217;s care. The same is not true of faith-healing revivals, where evangelists deceive supplicants into believing their ailments have been cured, often encouraging attendees to abandon traditional medical care in the process and causing them to suffer terribly or even die as a result. One particularly horrifying case: Helen Sullivan could walk only with a back brace, due to the cancer that had weakened the bones of her spinal cord. But when faith healer Kathryn Kuhlman told her that her cancer was cured, Sullivan threw off her back brace and ran across the stage several times as the audience applauded and Kuhlman praised the Lord. For the rest of the evening, Sullivan felt no pain, but by early morning, the pain had returned, only more intense than before. Without the support of her brace, one of her vertebrae had collapsed. Two months later, Sullivan was dead of the cancer that Kuhlman had &#8220;cured&#8221; her of. [&#8230;]
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		<title>By: Tommykey</title>
		<link>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/#comment-4070</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommykey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/#comment-4070</guid>
		<description>While I can't speak for all atheists and agnostics, I believe you would find that most of us became so over the course of time and after much thought and examination.  Being an atheist isn't easy, at least in America.  Because my wife, who immigrated here from the Philippines, is Catholic, I had to go through the motions of getting married in the church and having our two children baptized.  During the holidays, my wife nags me to put up christmas decorations (though thankfully they are secular ones, deer, tree, snow man etc.).  I am fortunate in that my wife is not particularly religious.  Her aunt and one of her sisters pesters her about her not going to church anymore, but she does not have time for it anymore even if she wanted to go.  Besides, I tell her, if God is everywhere, then one does not need to be in a particular building on a particular time and day of the week to worship such an entity.</description>
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<p>While I can&#8217;t speak for all atheists and agnostics, I believe you would find that most of us became so over the course of time and after much thought and examination.  Being an atheist isn&#8217;t easy, at least in America.  Because my wife, who immigrated here from the Philippines, is Catholic, I had to go through the motions of getting married in the church and having our two children baptized.  During the holidays, my wife nags me to put up christmas decorations (though thankfully they are secular ones, deer, tree, snow man etc.).  I am fortunate in that my wife is not particularly religious.  Her aunt and one of her sisters pesters her about her not going to church anymore, but she does not have time for it anymore even if she wanted to go.  Besides, I tell her, if God is everywhere, then one does not need to be in a particular building on a particular time and day of the week to worship such an entity.
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		<title>By: Social Scientist</title>
		<link>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/#comment-4068</link>
		<dc:creator>Social Scientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2006 12:52:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/#comment-4068</guid>
		<description>TK,
      Mmmm you are indeed a D &#38; M (deep and meaningful) person. I can see your line of reasoning in what you say and understand your motives now for such a belief in atheism.</description>
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<p>TK,<br />
      Mmmm you are indeed a D &amp; M (deep and meaningful) person. I can see your line of reasoning in what you say and understand your motives now for such a belief in atheism.
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		<title>By: Tommykey</title>
		<link>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/#comment-4064</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommykey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2006 01:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/#comment-4064</guid>
		<description>SS, I'm not going to degenerate into petty insults (though I may get cranky from time to time) because there's no point to it.  Ultimately, what I think about anything is of little importance in the grand scheme of things.

What makes me tick?  I'm strongly influenced by Eastern thought as written in texts like 'The Dhammapada', 'The Upanishads' and so forth.  It is our desire for and attachment to the things of this world that causes us misery.  It does not mean in my opinion that we should never desire anything, but that we should not get caught up in having luxuries and putting ourselves deep in debt, or letting ourselves become obsessed.  

I have always loved history, not just American history, but the history of many cultures and civilizations, like the Chinese, the Japanese, the Romans and so forth.  It was in learning about different cultures that attained great heights in civilization, and seeing that the religious and ethical texts of many disparate cultures contained some common moral truths, which played an important role in my abandonment of the Roman Catholic church in which I was raised.  I was amazed that there were some phrases in both the 'Dhammapadda' and Proverbs' that translated into English were almost identical.  From that, I came to the conclusion that if cultures that had no contact with the ancient Israelites or the early Christians were able to elucidate many of the same moral truths, then the Bible was not the sole source of truth in the world, and thus it became diminished in my eyes.

In addition to history, another interest of mine has been astronomy.  The vastness and beauty of the universe astonishes me.  And eventually I thought that it was ludicrous to think that some omnipotent deity is going to go through the trouble of making what for all intents and purposes is an infinite universe, filled with countless galaxies, which themselves contain even greater numbers of stars and planets, and then this same deity is going to make a covenant with one guy and his ancestors in the deserts of the Middle East.  This all powerful entity then commands them to occupy a land that is so geographically situated as to guarantee that every major power in the region is going to invade them and kick their asses.  I mean, if a nation is supposed to have the almighty creator of the universe on its side, I would expect that such a nation would never be conquered.  But the Israelites were ruled over throughout most of the last 1,500 hundred years B.C. by the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ptolemaic Greeks, Seleucid Greek, and the Romans.  Even in the brief periods of independence, the Israelites never controlled all of the land that God supposedly gave to them.  Chosen people indeed.  I was also appalled, after having read the Bible 3 times in a row and consulting it frequently, by the slaughter of people supposedly sanctioned by a god who is supposed to be merciful and loving.  And with the OT becoming discredited in my eyes, it only followed that the NT became discredited too, since Jesus was supposed to be a fulfillment of OT prophecy.  I had also read books and articles that examined the Bible critically.  From them, I learned that the OT books were not dictated by God to Moses or whomever.  Instead, the ancient Israelites, being a confederation of semi-nomadic tribes, got their ideas for monotheism from the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten, and they were also strongly influenced by the civilizations of Mesopotamia.

I did not become an atheist right away after losing my faith in Catholicism.  For a couple of years I believed in a Creator and that all religions were barriers that separated people from this creator.  I became an atheist as I lost my belief in the supernatural.  To me, believing in god was like believing in astrology, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, and extraterrestrials visiting the Earth in flying saucers.  As to whether there is some higher power in the universe that created us, I suppose it is possible, but if there is one, I doubt it takes much notice of us or that it intervenes in human history to decide the outcome of a battle or to heal a person who is dying or whatever.  

I am also essentially a libertarian at heart, though not a Libertarian with a capital "L".  Basically, I just like to be left alone, so I naturally reject a meddling busybody God who watches everything I do, who is going to make a stink if I eat meat on a Friday during Lent, or who unleashes AIDS on the world to punish homosexuals.  I am not anti-religion, though that might surprise you.  The libertarian in me who wants to be left alone believes that the best way to protect my freedom not to believe is to protect the freedom of others to believe.  What I do have a problem with is when people cite the Bible or the Koran to support policies or actions that hurt other people.  While I have a bigger gripe with Christianity because I live in a "Christian" country, I am deeply troubled by Islamic fundamentalism and militarism.  

We're living in an age when we have the technology to destroy the human race, along with most living things on this planet.  There are fewer things more frightening to me than having such destructive technology falling into the hands of fanatics who believe that blowing people up is carrying out God's will.  If there is a God, or even a multitiude of deities or higher powers that created us and take an interest in us, I would think that they would rather we live for them rather than kill or die for them.  

I could probably go on and on, but I think I've given you enough insight into what makes me tick.  Kind regards,  TK.</description>
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<p>SS, I&#8217;m not going to degenerate into petty insults (though I may get cranky from time to time) because there&#8217;s no point to it.  Ultimately, what I think about anything is of little importance in the grand scheme of things.</p>
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<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>What makes me tick?  I&#8217;m strongly influenced by Eastern thought as written in texts like &#8216;The Dhammapada&#8217;, &#8216;The Upanishads&#8217; and so forth.  It is our desire for and attachment to the things of this world that causes us misery.  It does not mean in my opinion that we should never desire anything, but that we should not get caught up in having luxuries and putting ourselves deep in debt, or letting ourselves become obsessed.  </p>
</div>
<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>I have always loved history, not just American history, but the history of many cultures and civilizations, like the Chinese, the Japanese, the Romans and so forth.  It was in learning about different cultures that attained great heights in civilization, and seeing that the religious and ethical texts of many disparate cultures contained some common moral truths, which played an important role in my abandonment of the Roman Catholic church in which I was raised.  I was amazed that there were some phrases in both the &#8216;Dhammapadda&#8217; and Proverbs&#8217; that translated into English were almost identical.  From that, I came to the conclusion that if cultures that had no contact with the ancient Israelites or the early Christians were able to elucidate many of the same moral truths, then the Bible was not the sole source of truth in the world, and thus it became diminished in my eyes.</p>
</div>
<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>In addition to history, another interest of mine has been astronomy.  The vastness and beauty of the universe astonishes me.  And eventually I thought that it was ludicrous to think that some omnipotent deity is going to go through the trouble of making what for all intents and purposes is an infinite universe, filled with countless galaxies, which themselves contain even greater numbers of stars and planets, and then this same deity is going to make a covenant with one guy and his ancestors in the deserts of the Middle East.  This all powerful entity then commands them to occupy a land that is so geographically situated as to guarantee that every major power in the region is going to invade them and kick their asses.  I mean, if a nation is supposed to have the almighty creator of the universe on its side, I would expect that such a nation would never be conquered.  But the Israelites were ruled over throughout most of the last 1,500 hundred years B.C. by the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ptolemaic Greeks, Seleucid Greek, and the Romans.  Even in the brief periods of independence, the Israelites never controlled all of the land that God supposedly gave to them.  Chosen people indeed.  I was also appalled, after having read the Bible 3 times in a row and consulting it frequently, by the slaughter of people supposedly sanctioned by a god who is supposed to be merciful and loving.  And with the OT becoming discredited in my eyes, it only followed that the NT became discredited too, since Jesus was supposed to be a fulfillment of OT prophecy.  I had also read books and articles that examined the Bible critically.  From them, I learned that the OT books were not dictated by God to Moses or whomever.  Instead, the ancient Israelites, being a confederation of semi-nomadic tribes, got their ideas for monotheism from the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten, and they were also strongly influenced by the civilizations of Mesopotamia.</p>
</div>
<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>I did not become an atheist right away after losing my faith in Catholicism.  For a couple of years I believed in a Creator and that all religions were barriers that separated people from this creator.  I became an atheist as I lost my belief in the supernatural.  To me, believing in god was like believing in astrology, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, and extraterrestrials visiting the Earth in flying saucers.  As to whether there is some higher power in the universe that created us, I suppose it is possible, but if there is one, I doubt it takes much notice of us or that it intervenes in human history to decide the outcome of a battle or to heal a person who is dying or whatever.  </p>
</div>
<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>I am also essentially a libertarian at heart, though not a Libertarian with a capital &#8220;L&#8221;.  Basically, I just like to be left alone, so I naturally reject a meddling busybody God who watches everything I do, who is going to make a stink if I eat meat on a Friday during Lent, or who unleashes AIDS on the world to punish homosexuals.  I am not anti-religion, though that might surprise you.  The libertarian in me who wants to be left alone believes that the best way to protect my freedom not to believe is to protect the freedom of others to believe.  What I do have a problem with is when people cite the Bible or the Koran to support policies or actions that hurt other people.  While I have a bigger gripe with Christianity because I live in a &#8220;Christian&#8221; country, I am deeply troubled by Islamic fundamentalism and militarism.  </p>
</div>
<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>We&#8217;re living in an age when we have the technology to destroy the human race, along with most living things on this planet.  There are fewer things more frightening to me than having such destructive technology falling into the hands of fanatics who believe that blowing people up is carrying out God&#8217;s will.  If there is a God, or even a multitiude of deities or higher powers that created us and take an interest in us, I would think that they would rather we live for them rather than kill or die for them.  </p>
</div>
<div title='Click to quote this paragraph in your reply below' class='clickquote'>
<p>I could probably go on and on, but I think I&#8217;ve given you enough insight into what makes me tick.  Kind regards,  TK.
</p>
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		<title>By: Social Scientist</title>
		<link>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/#comment-4059</link>
		<dc:creator>Social Scientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2006 00:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2006/01/19/apologetics-the-argument-from-miracles/#comment-4059</guid>
		<description>Tk,
     I felt that I was on stirring terms with you by now because we have gone at it like a pair of pit bulls non-stop. I actually respect the fact that you have held to your guns and not folded your argument and degenerated into pointless petty insults by now. You are my main nemisis on this forum and I look forward to seeing what clever ways you will destroy all my evidence which has taken so much time to gather up, you have made me work hard on this forum lol. My normal experience with atheists is that at a certain point they lose it with me and out come the knives, but you have hung in there with strength and control which makes me very curious to see what makes you tick. Dare I say it ..... you have earned my respect and raised the status of atheists in my eyes.</description>
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<p>Tk,<br />
     I felt that I was on stirring terms with you by now because we have gone at it like a pair of pit bulls non-stop. I actually respect the fact that you have held to your guns and not folded your argument and degenerated into pointless petty insults by now. You are my main nemisis on this forum and I look forward to seeing what clever ways you will destroy all my evidence which has taken so much time to gather up, you have made me work hard on this forum lol. My normal experience with atheists is that at a certain point they lose it with me and out come the knives, but you have hung in there with strength and control which makes me very curious to see what makes you tick. Dare I say it &#8230;.. you have earned my respect and raised the status of atheists in my eyes.
</p>
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