Behind Enemy Lines
Lya from God is for Suckers just posted about an informal experiment. She spent a couple of months visiting 35 Christian forums and compiled her observations of excuses, logical fallacies and misconceptions about atheists. She also offers some general commentary on the experience and the interactions she had. Anyone interested in the nuances of dialog between theists and atheists should go read her results.
Personally, I almost never comment on a Christian site unless I’m invited or they’re talking about me. I guess I doubt the influence an invading stranger can have on those of faith. I think the probability of deconversion under those circumstances is so small as to make the exercise futile. However, I do push the question of religion with people I know personally, because friendship (or at least acquaintance) affords me some leverage. I don’t know if I could claim a total deconversion, but I’ve definitely steered people in the right direction. I’ve made atheists out of agnostics and planted doubt in a number of believers. If we could all do that in our personal lives, it would make a huge difference.
As for the strangers, they have to take the first step. I think that those who have experienced the beginnings of doubt find their way to sites like this one, and those are people I can influence. I think that GOD or NOT also provides a great opportunity to put atheist thought before a theist audience. Of course, the opposite is also true, but converting an atheist is far more difficult than deconverting a theist, so the balance is favorable.
I guess my perspective on this is summed up by Sun Tzu in The Art of War. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.” When I see a theist come to this site and leave a comment telling me that they’re praying for me or that the holy spirit must “open my heart” to scripture, I laugh. I assume some of you find that kind of thing as amusing as I do. Do they really think they have a chance of converting ME of all people? If they do, they’re more delusional than the rest of the theists. They’d be far better off spending their evangelical capital on those in a weakened state. Go troll the funeral homes and free clinics. Take a hint from late night TV. All of the commercials at 2am are for sleeping pills, inspirational CDs and Girls Gone Wild videos. The audience is (mostly) in a weakened state, and it’s a lot easier to sell a cure, real or not, to a sick person than a healthy one. I think this lesson is applicable to atheists, also. The people going to religious sites are usually very religious. That’s a no-brainer. Spend your time and effort on higher probability targets. It’s a better investment.
On the other hand, if you just like to argue, go for it. Just don’t annoy people anonymously. It’s illegal now.
I’d like to hear your thoughts on these issues. Do you visit theist sites? How often? Are you confrontational? Have you been successful?
~I AM~
January 10th, 2006 at at 11:06 am
I am a recent deconvert to atheism, having just realized the truth of it this past August. After 50 years as a believer (Roman Catholic) I do not feel it is my place to challenge other believers on their faith. I’ll talk about my experience if asked, but I think I need to get more comfortable with my atheism before I get confrontational, if indeed I ever do.
January 10th, 2006 at at 12:10 pm
I have actually been a regular yakker on Christianforums for awhile now. I got a few thousand posts over there.
Ive actually deconverted a married Christian girl at those forums believe it or not! I turned her from liberal Christian to agnostic.
January 10th, 2006 at at 12:45 pm
Well, I pretty much agree with you on the posting to theist websites thing. I have done it a few times, and though the conversation can sometimes be interesting, they only qualify as entertainment to me, not productive deconversion. I am sure a deconversion happens from time to time, but the rate of return has got to be phenomenally low. I suppose however, that it is a place where one could find targets. Those looking for “clarification” or “guidance” from other theists. Much like a tiger you can stand back, look for the weak ones, then try and separate them from the rest of the herd.
That new law is pretty amazingly ridiculous. I assume that it will be tested and thrown out by the supreme court before too long. Even with a ScAlito on the bench. I mean, I probably just “broke the law” by making that predator analogy. I am sure it “annoys” someone.
January 10th, 2006 at at 1:06 pm
Other than my wife, who was a Southern Baptist sunday school teacher when we met, I have never deconverted anyone. Nor do I try. I have been an athiest for about 35 years now though and I am told as you get older you mellow somewhat. I seem to recall actually giving a damn about others beliefs when I was in my 30’s and might have tried to deconvert back then. I never visit theist sites and care less what they think until it affects me (Alito 3% beer stem cell research etc). That I get very worked up about.
I do have a fascination with trying to find religious folk who started from a blank slate and then worked out there must be a god and xxx is it. Never met one, but I keep looking as I think it would be an awesome chat.
January 10th, 2006 at at 1:11 pm
Whoa. That law. That’s some scary shit right there. How did that sneak by? That whole fucking thing is a direct fuck you to the 1st amendment. I gotta look this one up and see what other sneaky neocon shit is being pulled here. I’d be willing to bet there’s a clause about annoying politicians by speaking against them in there somewhere.
January 10th, 2006 at at 1:32 pm
I mainly focus on trying to get my theist friends to think about their beliefs. Like you said, it’s much easier with friends than random people on the internet.
January 10th, 2006 at at 1:35 pm
I find all of your comments annoying. Please provide your full names and Social Security numbers or I’ll have to alert the authorities.
January 10th, 2006 at at 1:42 pm
I agree with you I AM, the cure for religion starts with the individual (the first step to curing your addiction is to admit that you have a problem). Until that happens, no matter how solid the counter arguments, the believer will always fall back on their faith and since faith is an irrational position there is no way you can logically convince them otherwise. Now, if something happens which causes them to question their faith, then you might be able to stick your foot in the door and open up their mind to more rational alternatives. But again, you can’t force this on them, they have to invite you in.
I think monitoring the religious forums can be helpful for a variety of reasons, but I think it is basically worthless to go in their thinking you are going to deconvert the masses.
January 10th, 2006 at at 1:51 pm
Just one more way in which atheists are like vampires…
January 10th, 2006 at at 1:56 pm
Know what makes us eager to deconvert the masses? All the destruction wreaked in the name of faith. And all the exclusionary bigotry.
January 10th, 2006 at at 2:02 pm
Congratulations, Joe the Ordinary Guy.
This law is annoying, and it doesn’t exactly fit in with the First Amendment. Freedom of personally subjective, non-annoying speech? WTF? Congress is overflowing of idiots. Why can’t Bush just take control of the Internet like he did Iraq? Find the bad IP addresses and root ‘em out.
January 10th, 2006 at at 2:21 pm
why does deconversion have to be the only purpose for posting to those forums? wouldn’t going there to show that atheists aren’t “angry at god” be a worthy goal? Or to dispel any of the other misconceptions about us? You may not deconvert someone, but you might just open a few minds to the possibility that atheists are decent people. Personally, I suspect that many liberal theists and agnostics are actually atheists at heart, but we’ve gotten such a bad name that they just can’t call themselves the “a” word. Showing the world that atheists tend to be rational, moral, decent people is more important to me than trying to deconvert people.
That said, I’ve tried going into those forums, but I just can’t take it for long-I’m afraid that my head will explode.
January 10th, 2006 at at 2:38 pm
Sorry, major non sequitur, but I just got that. I always assumed that ~I AM~ was a variation on I think therefore I AM.
January 10th, 2006 at at 2:42 pm
why does deconversion have to be the only purpose for posting to those forums? wouldn’t going there to show that atheists aren’t “angry at god” be a worthy goal? Or to dispel any of the other misconceptions about us?
I accept your basic premise that improving the image of atheists is a worthwhile goal. However, how are you going to do that on a Christian forum? “Hi. I’m an atheist. I’m friendly.” …and leave? If you’re going to write anything on a religious site and self-identify as an atheist, it’s going to be about how there’s no god, or why would you go there in the first place? Compared to the number of Christians who are going to be offended that you dare question their worldview, the number that’s going to be pleasantly surprised that you can eviscerate their belief system without cursing and name-calling is tiny.
January 10th, 2006 at at 2:47 pm
Sorry, major non sequitur, but I just got that. I always assumed that ~I AM~ was a variation on I think therefore I AM.
Oh my word no! The mere mention of Descartes causes me to break out in a rash. When I was selecting a nom de plume, I was preparing for Christians to criticize me for my anonymity. I like being able to use the response “If it’s good enough for your god, it’s good enough for me.” It also works nicely with the blog title… I AM the Evangelical Atheist.
January 10th, 2006 at at 3:29 pm
I guess I can see that, given the whole “I can’t believe my senses so there must be a God” line of thinking.
January 10th, 2006 at at 6:16 pm
good point. It would depend quite a bit on the particular forum, and it would require quite a bit of patience, but I still think it could be worthwhile. You’d have to avoid getting too in-your-face and mostly ask questions to force the theists to defend themselves, and you’d have to be willing to wade through loads of typical fallacies, misconceptions, and outright lies, not to mention scathing ad hominem attacks, but if enough of us did that, I think it would make a difference.
I know I’ve posted in other forums (non-theology and atheology oriented) about god/no god issues, and while I doubt I deconverted anyone, I know that I’ve made a positive impression for atheists in them.
January 10th, 2006 at at 8:30 pm
I have never visited a theist site outside of God or Not. I just don’t see the point, and I end up frustrated and angry and sad, frankly.
This was a very… thoughtful… post. Very different from some of what you usually say, but still as good and very insightful and thought provoking. You touched a nerve for me, because I do not tend to confront the theists I am friends with. I try to avoid, at all costs, getting into it - because I am afraid to lose friendships over it (and believe I recently may have). I just leave people to their own idiocy.
I agree with your agenda, and think it’s admirable to try… I just don’t have the guts to do it, I guess.
January 10th, 2006 at at 8:48 pm
I have never visited a theist site outside of God or Not. I just don’t see the point, and I end up frustrated and angry and sad, frankly.
Same here. The frustration I feel just knowing that someone has not given the least amount of thought to their most important beliefs is enough to keep me away from overtly theistic websites. A few months ago, I was asked by a theist who reads I AM’s blog about my view of theistic blogs and how many I routinely read. I actually read a ton now that I have Google grab any and all blogs that mention the words “atheist” and “atheism,” but I hardly ever return to a theistic blog just to read content. I haven’t found one that I can tolerate, and I consider myself relatively tolerant of dissenting opinions. Theists just don’t think. That’s basically what it boils down to.
January 10th, 2006 at at 9:24 pm
This was a very… thoughtful… post. Very different from some of what you usually say, but still as good and very insightful and thought provoking.
This feels like a sort of backhanded compliment. How is it different from what I normally say? I’m curious. Am I being inconsistent in some way?
January 10th, 2006 at at 9:57 pm
No, but paranoid comes to mind.
January 10th, 2006 at at 11:45 pm
I’ve only visited 2 theist sites. One was on your prompting a while back, and the other was that nutball Kirk Cameron’s site thewayofthemaster.com
I agree it is simply not worth the effort to try deconversion on theist sites, let alone anything else. Everytime I talk with theists on atheist sites I get sidetracked by the dozens of inane things they say. You may have a conversation about one thing and have to disagree with or ignore or correct practically everything they say. Religion seems to suck the brains right out of ‘em.
On an unrelated topic, I wanted to let you know, I Am, that I heard your voice on the BZT weekly reading your Christmas jingle. I didn’t think your voice would be so deep. Don’t know why. That BZT show rocks.
January 11th, 2006 at at 12:19 am
No, but paranoid comes to mind.
You tell people that behind my back, don’t you?
January 11th, 2006 at at 11:43 am
I used to chat on Yahoo’s now-defunct “Atheists vs Christians” room, as one of the resident biologists (though I was still an undergrad when I started there).
Now, I mainly spend my time on local newspaper article discussions, debunking the crazy things people think about atheists and about biology in the most calm and polite manner I can manage.
I don’t care to “deconvert” anyone, but I do care about the crazy stuff that gets done in the name of Christianity simply because there are so many of them who don’t even know that we’re out there, or who think (because they are told) that atheists are a threat to them that should be socially pressured “into the closet”, so to speak; not to mention the social policies enacted in the name of the organized religions. I argue not only because I am good at it, but because if we don’t, nobody will, and then our Christian Imams are the only people reaching “the common man.”
January 11th, 2006 at at 1:43 pm
I used to visit those sites when I was younger and was trying to kill some time. I definitely wouldn’t be confrontational. Actually, I’d usually do it under the guise of being a christian because it was easier for me to discuss the issues with them if they thought I was one of them. I’d generally say something like “my friend, who recently told me she was an atheist, asked me such and such about such and such, and I don’t know what to say! She seems to make a lot of sense, what should I say?” And then I would argue my friend’s position so that I could convey the ideas without getting personally attacked and banned. While they were of course never convinced and usually told me to get new friends, maybe I planted some seeds of reason that have made some fruit since then.
January 12th, 2006 at at 2:21 am
I once had a lively conversation (in a chat room) with a xtian on the subject of theism. He was trying to tell me what a hellbound bastard I was, and I was trying to win him over to my brand of atheist hellbound bastardism. I showed him how Jesus is fiction; I demonstrated over and again how the bible contradicts itself into meaninglessness; I was forced to explain in detail how Behe’s “irreducible complexity” proves nothing let alone intelligent design. I felt that I was pretty effective, especially when I exhausted him of any intelligent response. And then he did what any true dyed-in-the-wool theist would do, and fell back on faith as his only rebuttal. To each new argument of mine he began to simply reply “you may say what you will, but still I believe.”
“Still I believe.”
Over and over again, perhaps a dozen times. I have never since attempted to convert a theist, and see no point in visiting sites teeming with such willfully ignorant denizens. I no longer have the patience.
January 12th, 2006 at at 7:43 pm
“I find all of your comments annoying. Please provide your full names and Social Security numbers or I’ll have to alert the authorities.”
Seriously, though, it’s an interesting thought.
Oh, crap.
My full name is Damien T. Antíkhristos, & my SSN is 666-66-6666.
Muhuwahahah!
I wonder what qualifies one for trolldom on an Xtian site?
I have dropped in twice at the STOPTHEACLU site, & twice commented. No response.
Lya noted that 7 or 8 of them deleted her post haste.
I had considered doing this sort of thing, but w/my nick, I’d probably be fending off theists swarming & trampling 1 another to ’save’ me. (I actually get this sort of behavior once in a while at the NGB, or via the sporadic email: announcing my thorough apostasy usually terminates the discussion.)
Gotta get a better nom de plume.
Anyways: “None so blind as those who will not see.”
Hmmm. Guess the bibble is good for something besides TP.
January 13th, 2006 at at 6:31 am
Maybe the law only applies to one of “the internets” Dubya was talkin’ about. Wahtever the fact, that’s some scary-ass ish right there, and therefore doesn’t suprise me one bit.
I would lose my mind f I tried to have a religion debate with a theist online. I start with th epeople I know personally.
My brother’s mother is a fundy nut who Tivo’s every 700 Club episode (she even buys his energy shake shit). She’s also all about eschatology and doomsday: she has been declaring every event of the last 20 years as definitive PROOF of Revelation coming true.
Well, in a recent convo we were having, she actually said to me: “Stop…if I keep listening I’ll start to believe you.”
Oh well.
January 14th, 2006 at at 12:50 pm
This was a very… thoughtful… post. Very different from some of what you usually say, but still as good and very insightful and thought provoking.
This feels like a sort of backhanded compliment. How is it different from what I normally say? I’m curious. Am I being inconsistent in some way?
Oh, no - this wasn’t at all a backhanded compliment. I’ve been sick, and had taken some Nyquil before writing that comment, so I guess I wasn’t clear. Hell, I’m not even sure what my point was now, when I read it over. I think I was trying to convey that this post seemed more personal than most of your previous ones.
You are certainly not inconsistent… but maybe Uberkuh is on to something ;). Just kidding. Really.
February 8th, 2006 at at 1:45 am
L J says: “I do have a fascination with trying to find religious folk who started from a blank slate and then worked out there must be a god and xxx is it. Never met one, but I keep looking as I think it would be an awesome chat.” - Here I am L J you have found one. lol want to chat?
February 8th, 2006 at at 2:07 am
Here’s a twist, I have been a Christian for 29 years now and still going strong. And I regularly engage atheist and agnostics in conversation about Christianity, evolution or any other related topics. I love it and am not offended by even the most insulting atheists, but take them as they come and enjoy discussing all topics with them. Bring it on atheist lol.