God Bless America
I love America.
I am well aware that I will take some heat from extremist members of my audience for this, but I am a patriot. “But patriotism is just like religion,” you say. Whatever. Feel free to spew your anarchist agenda or paint us a verbal picture of your utopian world government in the comments. I am a flag-waving, American atheist, and you’ll have to deal with that. That’s not what this post is about, anyway.
Over the summer, I went to a baseball game with my father. At the beginning of a game, when the Star Spangled Banner plays, I stand and put my hat over my heart. At this game, though, there was an additional musical number that had nothing to do with peanuts and Crackerjacks. During the seventh inning stretch, someone performed God Bless America. The “patriotic song” muscle memory was triggered in my head, and I stood. I didn’t remove my hat, but I stood along with the 6,000 people in the (minor league) stadium. Within about a second, I realized what song it was. Hell, it starts with the word “god,” so it doesn’t take long. I stood there for the rest of the song, contemplating what I had done. The simple act of rising from my seat in the name of god made me absolutely sick, but I didn’t sit back down. Why? Well, I don’t really know. It was a snap decision. Whatever I figure out now is just rationalization. Maybe I thought it would be disrespectful to others. Maybe it was a sense of patriotic obligation. Maybe I was too weak to take a stand by sitting down. I’ll never really know.
However, when we went to another game at the same ballpark about a month later, I was prepared. God Bless America was performed during the seventh inning stretch, and I lost sight of the field when the 5,999 people around me stood up. I felt vindicated. It’s a very small victory, but again, that’s not what this post is about.
Do you want me to tell you what it’s about now?
It’s about the insidiousness of god. It’s about the way in which religion intertwines itself with another concept, using it as a Trojan horse to permeate the barriers of one’s psyche . Through this process, for many people, religion becomes inextricably bound to the other idea. Sometimes, in fact, the juxtaposition of the two ideas will become so deeply entrenched in a culture as to result in a cliché, such as “god and country.”
The town of Babylon, New York suffers from this particular error of association. The Center for Inquiry and the Freedom from Religion Foundation are attempting to force the town to remove two banners that read “God Bless America.”
However, Babylon Supervisor Steve Bellone, a Democrat, has refused the request, noting that the banners were hung two months ago. He said the larger, 11-foot banner that hangs from the front pillars of Town Hall is there in support of the military families in the town. [source]
Well, as long as they’ve been there for two months, they can stay. All we have on our side is 216 years of separation of church and state. What’s truly amazing is that Supervisor Bellone doesn’t see this as a church and state issue.
“I’m clearly in support of the separation of church and state but it becomes absurd when people take it to this level,” Bellone said yesterday. “The American motto of ‘God Bless America’ is as American as apple pie.”
Take it to this level? What level? You mean the level at which we ACTUALLY SEPARATE CHURCH FROM STATE?!? Unthinkable! Obviously, Mr. Bellone, and other members of the town government, can no longer see any daylight between god and country.
But Bellone said that “the country is constantly being bombarded with groups like this,” adding that “we will stand up against these groups on principle.”
Well, Supervisor Bellone, as the old saying goes, never bring a knife to a gunfight. You rely on principle. We have a little thing called the Constitution. I think we’ll use that.
~I AM~
October 18th, 2005 at at 12:52 am
I have an excellent example of just what you mean. My husband was recently talking about saying “Bless you” after a sneeze. He wasn’t going to do it anymore, he told me. I understood his reasonings, but at first thought it a bit silly.
He tried not to do it, but kept forgetting. Then I realized it bothered me every time I said it. It never had before, until I thought about it. I mean, what’s the big deal, right? It’s just the polite thing to do. Except that I don’t want to bless people. I don’t believe in god.
Part of why it’s so hard for me to kick the habit is actually a bit ridiculous. I spent the first 10 years of my life thinking people were saying “Bleshu”. I’m serious. Say it fast. It sounds like “Bleshu”. No, really, it does.
Anyway, I heard it that way for so long that I still tend to hear it that way. It never had a religious connotation for me, even when I was religious. However, it DOES have a religious connotation, and that bothers me now.
Just a fabulous example of the insidiousness you refer to, I AM. This is an excellent post!
October 18th, 2005 at at 1:09 am
“It’s about the insidiousness of god. It’s about the way in which religion intertwines itself with another concept, using it as a Trojan horse to permeate the barriers of one’s psyche . Through this process, for many people, religion becomes inextricably bound to the other idea. Sometimes, in fact, the juxtaposition of the two ideas will become so deeply entrenched in a culture as to result in a cliché, such as “god and country.”
Yes, the power of Christ compels you.
Unless you’re a woman. Then, the flour of yeast congeals you.
October 18th, 2005 at at 3:06 am
I AM:
Very well put. I have railed on this elsewhere. My favorite anectdotal story is that for many years, I assumed (& said, much to my shame!) that the U.S was founded on biblical premises. 1 day, I asked myself, “Am I talking out my butt?”, sat down, & read the 3 pivotal documents. Talk about a rude awakening!
My parents weren’t overly religious. Where’d I get this nonsense? The money. The pledge. All those little invidious mini-memes that ended up conglomerating into 1 big brain-fart.
Pardon me, I’m off to cross out IGWT on all my paper money.
addict_no_more: if you can’t rearrange the neural pathways around saying something when someone sneezes, try “Gesundheit!” It’s non-theist, german for “Health be to you”.
October 18th, 2005 at at 4:12 am
I have an excellent example of just what you mean. My husband was recently talking about saying “Bless you” after a sneeze.
Funny, I just had my own experience about that. I sneezed on the subway the other day, and someone said, “Bless you.” I said, “Thank you,” out of habit, and then thought about it and felt ridiculous for the rest of my commute. LOL I couldn’t think of even a possible alternative response until much later–”No thank you.” Would that be too rude?
October 18th, 2005 at at 5:32 am
This is one of those little things that add up to a big thing. Phrases such as “bless you” after a sneeze, or using god as an expletive, or using any of the myriad little religious memes that have crept into western culture all add up. With the minions of religion going so far out of their way to aggravate everyone else (Christian fundies and muslim extremists namely), now is the perfect time to use our OWN memes to spread the atheist equivalents. We should stand up to each issue of Church/state seperation, we should say “Gesundheit” instead of “bless you”, we should correct the ignorance most people have of their own religion. I saw a lovely statistic the other day. Chrisitianity in America is shrinking (by population) by a bout 1% a year. At the same time, the percentage of right wing fundie type christians withing the christian community is growing by 1% a year. What this basically means is that Americans are becoming LESS religious and the ones that are left are becoming MORE extremist. Eventually its going to get to a point where more people leave the faith because they cannot tolerate the grip fundies have on it. And then its us vs them (by their own admission).
October 18th, 2005 at at 9:25 am
Reluctant Atheist - I actually do occasionally say “Gesundheit!” I grew up with Germans.
October 18th, 2005 at at 9:41 am
So, is saying “goddamnit” and “geezusfuckingchrist” a bad thing? I figured it’s a fun way to piss off the religious right. You know, the whole taking god’s name in vain thing.
October 18th, 2005 at at 10:21 am
You are not alone. This is a wonderful country and I am a proud American Atheist patriot. But that is not what this comments are about.
Brilliant article! The influence of religion in our culture is pervasive. It is just as important and effective (maybe more so) to fight the little battles as the big ones. Some good ideas in the comments above, too. But I cannot give up cussing, goddamnit. I know, I know. I should be stronger, but at least it pisses the xtians off.
October 18th, 2005 at at 10:43 am
I found myself, instead of the “Gesundheit!”, saying, “Kazoosnot”. It’s a trip to see how people react to that. They think you said, Gesundheit, but they’re usually afraid to ask, what did you just say?
October 18th, 2005 at at 10:45 am
You should try it next time. It’s fun.
October 18th, 2005 at at 11:01 am
What I want to know is, what’s the acceptable phrase to use when in the, um, ‘throes of passion’? “Oh, Satan” just doesn’t have that ring, and “Oh, universe” is a bit of a mouthfull.
No pun intended, of course.
October 18th, 2005 at at 11:37 am
Hey Vic, calling out to your lady “goddess! fuckin’ goddess!” has a way of encouraging a girl to keep at it with enthusiasm.
Especially if, in the moment, you really mean it.
and, Gesundheit it has been since I was 16 or so. When people say “bless you” to me, I reply “thank you Father (or Sister.)”
Well said, I AM.
October 18th, 2005 at at 11:44 am
Theres nothing wrong with taking the lords name in vein by saying things like “goddammit” or “oh my fucking god!” because those phrases are blasphemous and disprespectful to him.
But in other instances, such as “god bless you” during a sneeze, are more difficult to judge their appropriateness. For me personally, I dont say anything when someone near me sneezes, except maybe “dont get that on me!”
October 18th, 2005 at at 12:55 pm
I Am, returning to your silent protest of not standing to God Bless America, I haven’t stood for it for 4 years now, however, I must qualify the statement by admitting I’m rarely at an event that plays it. I will stand for, but no longer sing, national anthems (I’m an Australian living in NYC). I guess it’s like when I attend church weddings. I’ll sit and stand when I have to but will never bow my head, kneel or sing. I usually sit quietly and become increasing disgusted with what I’m seeing and hearing.
October 18th, 2005 at at 2:22 pm
I feel compelled to point out that Fred Phelps and his glorious Westboro Baptist Church will be up in my area this week to protest a high school’s performance of “The Laramie Project”…a play about the murder of Matthew Shepard, in which Phelps is played negatively.
I shall be reporting on the protests for my school paper, so I look forward to experiencing this insidiousness at its worst.
Ah, and your story about Babylon remind me of the controversy over “Under God” in the pledge; its been there for 50 years, so why get rid of it?
October 18th, 2005 at at 2:23 pm
“Gesundheit”. I like “gesundheit”. If someone says “bless you” I don’t say anything, but if they say “god bless you”, I respond, “God bless me? If that means he’s going to march my ass around in the dessert for forty years I think I’ll pass.” I don’t have the song at the ballgame problem, but what if you stood on “America” and sat down on “God”? My problem is the “I’ll pray for you” thing. It makes me so angry and so sorry for the speaker that I am at a loss for words.
Again, great article and comments. Gesundheit, goddamnit!
October 18th, 2005 at at 2:32 pm
I never wait for someone to say “bless you.” I always say “bless me father for I have sneezed” immediately after kachooing, and I always receive interesting double takes.
I think that in many cases, for many people, the word “God” is used figuratively. It’s just colloquial speech. Do we need to replace it with an atheistic meme? I tend to go back and forth on that one. Some days I’ll feel pissed at the religious world and frantically sharpie out IGWT on all my bills. Other days I’ll say ‘Oh My Lord!” and “Sweet GEEZUSSS!” in a sort of playful and facetious manner. Perhaps one day, ‘God’ will simply be another funny little word that once had profound meaning but has ultimately been watered down to the point where it is just an abstraction of natural human wonder. For a lot of Americans, that is already the case.
One can only hope it continues to spread.
October 18th, 2005 at at 3:26 pm
Those of you itching to spend money on a magazine might like to take a look at this month’s edtion of Esquire where you’ll find a couple of good articles. One is “The Case for Intelligent Design,” which is not really what it sounds, and the other is “Idiot America,” which looks at the phenomena of anti-science that is rampant in the country.
October 18th, 2005 at at 3:28 pm
r4d: I’ve got to admit, I miss being able to say things like “in front of god and everyone”, “God bless it”, & other such nonsenses. Restructuring the neural pathways is such a pain in the ass. Problem is, I’m an atheist now, & it seems as if there’s some unwritten rule (we don’t have a rulebook yet, do we?) at least IMHO, that such expressions might constitute hypocrisy. Probably just me.
“Perhaps one day, ‘God’ will simply be another funny little word”
That sounds remarkably like an old Lenny Bruce routine (D’oh! Dated myself again!).
Jab: I love it! Kazoosnot! Going to borrow it, if you don’t mind.
Vic: old joke - What’s the worst thing about being an Atheist? You have no 1 to talk to during sex. LOL.
October 18th, 2005 at at 4:15 pm
cubic rooms said:
“If that means he’s going to march my ass around in the dessert for forty years I think I’ll pass.”
I’d be pissed too if God marched me through a pie.
October 18th, 2005 at at 4:20 pm
I think that avoiding “Bless You” is a bit ludicrous. After all, you are not delcaring your belief in god(s) when you say it. You could just say it was a saying.
October 18th, 2005 at at 4:20 pm
*as
October 18th, 2005 at at 4:37 pm
reluctant: Yeah like I said, I go back and forth. But do people take us more seriously or less seriously when we go to the extreme of signing our letters ‘in Reason’ or try to replace every ‘god’ explicative with an atheistic equivalent?
I really don’t know the answer to that.
October 18th, 2005 at at 5:27 pm
I scanned the previous comments pretty quickly, so I am not sure if anyone else mentioned this, but I have never said “bless you” not because of the religious implications per say, but rather because the custom originated out of the plague and had more to do with the fear that the person sneezing was going to die than it did anything else. If you really know where the custom came from it is kind of like saying, “gee I am really sorry you are about to die, God bless you on your way”. Even if you believe in God this seams a bit morbid to me. Since then I have added meaning for myself by not wanting to use a religious phrase that I did not believe in.
On a broader note, I agree phrases like “Under God”, “God Bless You”, or “Thank God” are insidious in their ubiquity. I myself pause mentally whenever I catch myself saying “Thank God” out of relief. I pause because I know that God had nothing to do with it. Yet, the phrase is stuck there in my psyche.
But, where as I agree the phrases need to be purged from our government, I am not always convinced that the methodology of atheists has been ideal. Confrontation on this will gain little if people continue to believe in God. The reason the issue seams trivial to them is because they take it for granted. To most Americans the thought that there is no God is ridiculous. People need to understand the absurdity of their superstitions before they can understand the subtleties of separation of church and state.
A small child that is afraid of the dark will call out to it’s parents for protection. As adults, calling out to a non-existent imaginary friend in the sky might make some people feel better, but like the child, eventually mankind must master it’s fear of the dark and face it alone.
October 18th, 2005 at at 5:54 pm
LBBP:
A small child that is afraid of the dark will call out to it’s parents for protection. As adults, calling out to a non-existent imaginary friend in the sky might make some people feel better, but like the child, eventually mankind must master it’s fear of the dark and face it alone.
Beautifully said. I got a little chill reading that last line.
October 18th, 2005 at at 6:53 pm
When people say “Bless you” (or especially “God bless you”) to me, I usually reply with “And may The Force be with you!”
Tit-for-tat, my imaginary spirit for your imaginary deity…
October 18th, 2005 at at 6:55 pm
Ooh, or, “And may The farce be with you!”
October 18th, 2005 at at 7:04 pm
Just to clarify, Bless You doesn’t imply anythimg. The statement, in just grammar, means that you’re the one blessing the person, and not God. Saying God Bless You does mean you want God to bless the person, and that I have a problem with.
Jolly good article.
And I have an odd need to point that I too am going to the high school’s performance of “The Laramie Project”.
October 18th, 2005 at at 8:32 pm
Aeger: w/all due respect -
From http://www.answers.com/bless -
1. To make holy by religious rite; sanctify.
2. To make the sign of the cross over so as to sanctify.
3. To invoke divine favor upon.
4. To honor as holy; glorify: Bless the Lord.
5. To confer well-being or prosperity on.
6. To endow, as with talent.
I think most people go w/the 1st 4. Blessing someone still has a religious connotation attached, though that may change in time.
October 18th, 2005 at at 8:46 pm
I am not arguing with anyone, but I would suspect that even with definitions five and six, there is an implied religious undertone.
October 18th, 2005 at at 8:46 pm
When I sneeze it comes out as “atiskiaski!” instead of “achew!” Most people can’t resist asking me what it means. I tell ‘em it is Russian for ‘Gesundheit’. Yes, atiskiaski! doesn’t mean anything, but it makes as much sense as blessing someone for sneezing.
Why don’t they bless you when you yawn? That would make more sense. Supposedly yawning allows demons to posess you and sneezing exorcizes them. “Bless you!” is the purification.
October 18th, 2005 at at 9:02 pm
I always thought you were supposed to say, “a Jew,” which I found unfair since God had already blessed Jews all throughout the Old Testament and since it is very hard to make yourself say anything intelligible when you’re sneezing anyway. It was as if God decided that it wasn’t enough to make me a Gentile; he had to make me admit it everytime I got a cold!
Just kidding.
October 18th, 2005 at at 10:02 pm
The best response to someone saying “Bless you” is “not Catholic!”
(Even though Protestants say it too).
October 19th, 2005 at at 7:33 am
Addict_no_more
“It’s just the polite thing to do. Except that I don’t want to bless people. I don’t believe in god.”
Just because you don’t believe in God, you don’t want to bless people? So this means, you don’t want to bless your husband, children, parents, friends? When you do nice things for anyone you are blessing them, that doesn’t mean that you love God….your being nice. And saying bless you, well if that is how you see it, then I can understand. I don’t see saying “Bless you” when someone sneezes a religious thing.
October 19th, 2005 at at 8:35 am
J
Of course you don’t see it as a religious thing. Just like those people who put up those signs don’t see it as a religious thing. Because it is so ubiquitous, it seems like it isn’t, but it is. That was the point of the post.
October 19th, 2005 at at 9:00 am
Wouldn’t you say that God Bless you would be more religious than bless you? I always say God bless you because of my faith, I declare it. I feel weird just saying bless you…yes, I know that is not a cool thing to say on this site.
October 19th, 2005 at at 12:13 pm
J - “yes, I know that is not a cool thing to say on this site.”
It’s not about being cool, and you are more than welcome to declare your faith to us. Just expect that faith to be challenged.
I think that our (meaning us atheists) main problem with colloquial uses of the word ‘God’ is that it makes us feel dishonest, and that’s not a good feeling. It’s really tricky because it’s so deeply rooted in our language and culture that it often feels oppressive, yet it’s not very realistic for us to say that we’re going to force a change in language and culture only to serve our marginalized needs.
All we can do is find our own personal solution that will help us stay true to our own ethical stance. I’m sure that any good christian could relate to that.
October 19th, 2005 at at 12:27 pm
Responses to “Bless You”
“Already tried that. I must have *sniff* one of those damned (or “goddamned”, if you feel bold) agnostic germs. *sniff*”
“Oh, thanks… *cocks head to indicate curiosity* Is that Wiccan? That blessing thing? Seems like every time anybody says that to me anymore they’re a Wiccan.”
“Thanks, but I really need a full-blown exorcism. *sniff* Fucking demons…”
October 19th, 2005 at at 12:30 pm
Siggy Says:
Those of you itching to spend money on a magazine might like to take a look at this month’s edtion of Esquire where you’ll find a couple of good articles. One is “The Case for Intelligent Design,” which is not really what it sounds, and the other is “Idiot America,” which looks at the phenomena of anti-science that is rampant in the country.
Damn straight Siggy! Those are both excellent articles. They’re so good, I almost paid the $2.95 fee to download them, so I could forward them to you fine people.
But then I remembered, I’m a cheap bastard, so go buy your own damned magazine.
October 19th, 2005 at at 2:05 pm
Great post, I Am, great blog.
I live in Colorado Springs and have had the same problem at Sky Sox baseball games. They would otherwise be a great place to bring my little boy (now 5 yrs old). We sit thru “god bless america” but always give a rousing “take me out to the ballgame” which follows it. I might have to stop going since last game we went to was a 2 hour advertisement for god & military. What an idiotic town.
I wonder what everybody suggests I might do about the “God Bless America” poster at my son’s (public) elementary school. I know we’ve got no choice (for the time being) about the pledge being said. But am I within my rights to ask the principle to take down a “patriotic” poster of the flag and the words “God Bless America?”
October 19th, 2005 at at 2:35 pm
mike:
I would speak to the principal about it. If he/she puts up a fight, threaten to contact the ACLU, but only if you’re prepared to follow through. That should put the fear of god into them, as they say.
I was just in Colorado Srings a few weeks ago. It’s a beautiful place. I was told that Focus on the Family has a death grip on the town, but in the areas I visited, adult bookstores outnumbered churches.
October 19th, 2005 at at 3:11 pm
Mike says:
But am I within my rights to ask the principle to take down a “patriotic” poster of the flag and the words “God Bless America?”
I would think so.
However, you probably stand a greater chance of success by asking them to “define God” a little better. Don’t ask them to take the poster down. For all you know, the principal himself/herself put it up just daring some liberal fuck to a showdown. Heels will be dug in, and the pissing match will begin. Unless you work for the ACLU, or Americans United, you’ve probably got better things to do with your time.
So, instead of asking them to take it down, ask if they’ll put UP a little asterisk over God, and then a little (framed) thing on the side that states, “God can be considred to be, but is not limited to, Allah, Buddha, Christ, Clapton, Dylan, Etc.”
Tell them that your family has been discussing Buddhism, and your child has repeatedly asked you if the poster is referring to Buddha, and if the principal is Buddhist, and is this a Buddhist school, and so on, and so on.
Act concerned for the fragility of your childs mind. Isn’t it possible, dear principal, that some student may tell my child that Buddha is NOT God? Isn’t it possible that other students, who worship different God’s, might similarly be ridiculed?
This way, you give the principal a way to accept your position, and act upon it, without backing down and/or losing face. The principal gets to play the part of the “thoughtful, considerate, tolerant hero”, by doing so.
Of course, this is all conjecture, and he/she could just as easily tell you to go fuck yourself.
If that happens, you’re on your own!
October 19th, 2005 at at 3:32 pm
…until he calls up the ACLU.
October 19th, 2005 at at 3:42 pm
On a related note: Damnit. Just when I thought my coffee addiction was unstoppable, Starbucks goes and limits it by forcing me to walk another few hundred yards to choose another, better-tasting, less expensive brand. Damnit.
October 19th, 2005 at at 4:34 pm
God bless America… because no one else is gonna do it.
October 19th, 2005 at at 5:26 pm
thank you for the advise. no, i don’t want to threaten a lawsuit. i think i like rmadison’s idea. i had also thought of offering an alternative poster - maybe a poster of the freeedom from religion foundation’s “Atheist in Foxholes” monument. Like the Buddha asterisk, the principal wouldn’t necessarily want to actually use it, but if she is inclined to take the God poster down, she could offer the Atheist poster or the Buddha asterisk as an excuse to the furious wingnuts who go after her.
Unfortunately, I found out there is no such poster. I think I’ll go with Rmadison’s Bhudda idea. The school is supposed to be in the International Baccalaureate program. Our family is half East Asian - even though we are atheists, the Bhudda part will carry more weight.
Sad, isn’t it, that the best way to fight superstition is with some other superstition?
October 19th, 2005 at at 6:16 pm
Tremendously. Good luck.
October 20th, 2005 at at 3:46 am
Damn the trouble of resisting conditioning.
I’m always catching myself saying “Bless you” or “Thank God”.
I’ve always been pretty dammit curious about the whole taking God’s name in vain thing. After all - “god” isn’t “his” name”, is it? And if you really would like God to damn something, would that be in vain? The whold concept of swear words/cussing boggles my mind anyway. We’ve placed so much power on words.
October 20th, 2005 at at 10:57 am
“But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which
preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own.”
- Abraham Lincoln from his Thanksgiving Proclamation (1863)
I’m thankful for such ’superstitious’ men throughout history. The main reason the founding fathers wanted separation of church of state was fear of the state taking over religion not vice versa. That was a big reason for their fleeing England in the first place.
October 20th, 2005 at at 12:01 pm
Chad,
If I recall correctly, many on this site have called the role of religion “mixed” in our country’s history. Today, as it has been throughout the world’s history, there are good and bad “superstitious” individuals. Recently, however, the bad has outnumbered the good.
We should equally fear religion trying to take over the state as well, Chad. Theocracies have an unsightly image throughout histoty as well.
October 20th, 2005 at at 4:47 pm
Chad: Here’s 1 for you:
“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.”
– Abraham Lincoln, to Judge J. S. Wakefield, after Willie Lincoln’s death - 1862
October 20th, 2005 at at 5:01 pm
Chad,
I too am grateful for Abraham Lincoln. If you want to think that it was his superstitious beliefs that made him great, I can’t exactly prove you wrong. I tend to think that he was great in spite of them.
I agree with Ol’ Abe that we shouldn’t think that our present (relative) peace and prosperity is due purely to our own wisdom and virtue. I disagree about the God part. We can take very little credit for ourselves. The rest, I think we should attibute to the efforts of others, and also to dumb luck.
In my family we thank each other on Thanksgiving Day; also other important people like our teachers, our ancestors and Honest Abe.
- Mike
October 21st, 2005 at at 12:16 am
Franky, I agree that theocracies are scary and certainly am not arguing for that extreme. But I did want to point out that the original context of the separation of church and state provision often seems to be forgotten. While I know that the founding fathers were not all Christians and they did not want anything even remotely resembling a theocracy, it also seems pretty clear that they were not loathe to mention God either. Their theistic beliefs are intertwined all through the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
Reluctant Atheist, That’s an interesting quote, but it’s kind of hard to tell what that means without context. I tend to think that was more of an indictment against the church at the time than it was some sort of statement against any belief in Christ.
Mike, It seems hard for me to believe such great historical figures were all great only in spite of their beliefs. It seems to me (through biographies and autobiographies) that the resolve of such leaders was direct result of their faith, both in steadying their perserverence and conviction.
October 21st, 2005 at at 10:03 am
Take heat from “extremist members” of your audience? Interesting. Blind faith in dogma is a problem, whether it is religion, patriotism, etc. is secondary. Does this make me an anarchist? Like religion, patriotism is maladaptive in that it leads to negative consequences.
As for the meat of your post, outstanding! You are correct to point out that we live in a Christian culture and that this provides the context in which we find ourselves - often without realizing it. In the same way, we live in a culture that is insidiously sexist, rascist, and homophobic. Like the “god bless America” banners, it is acceptable (and rarely noticed by the majority) to use “that’s gay” in a negative sense. It is difficult to critique these problems without being able to step outside them, and yet it is difficult to remain outside all the time. Thus, your experience of finding yourself standing up for the Christian song without realizing what was happening is all too common.
October 21st, 2005 at at 10:14 am
vjack:
Blind faith in dogma is a problem, whether it is religion, patriotism, etc. is secondary.
I agree. I have faith in freedom because I have seen how the alternative works out. It is not blind.
Like religion, patriotism is maladaptive in that it leads to negative consequences.
I see where you’re coming from. I should clarify my position. My loyalty is not to a person, an administration, a party or “The United States of America.” It is to the principles upon which this country was founded. It is to the ideas of freedom and democracy. Often, the greatest enemy of the country I love is the government thereof. I don’t give the actions taken by the American government a free pass. That kind of patriotism is, in fact, maladaptive. If we, as the body of the nation, see the head facing the wrong direction, it is our responsibility to turn it rather than follow it wherever it leads us.
October 21st, 2005 at at 12:13 pm
chad says,
“Their theistic beliefs are intertwined all through the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.”
Wrong!
In the Declaration, yes. It refers to a “Creator” and to “Nature’s God.” But the Constitution is completely and absolutely 100% secular. No dieties nowhere. And the Constitution is the supreme law of the land.
- Mike
p.s. no, the date doesn’t count!
October 24th, 2005 at at 4:52 pm
Chad:
“That’s an interesting quote, but it’s kind of hard to tell what that means without context.”
It was at a funeral, an offhand remark. Note that it doesn’t speak of the Catholic, but was a more general commentary about Xtianity.
I’d also read somewhere that AL converted at the battle of Gettysburg. Will look into it.
I know you were speaking to Mike, but this 1: “It seems to me (through biographies and autobiographies) that the resolve of such leaders was direct result of their faith” would require some examples.
Many of the Founding Fathers espoused Xtianity in public, but inveighed against it in their private letters. Railing against it in public (then as now) would’ve amounted to political suicide, as evidenced by Paine’s publication of the Age of Reason, in which he was stigmatized in the very country he’d helped build.
Madison, Jefferson, Adams, Paine, even Franklin (who rather liked the benign JC, but was unconvinced of his divinity).
There was perhaps a knee-jerk response against the ‘Divine Right’ concept propounded by the Vatican (which helped give birth to the Deist movement).
But track record is everything. It’s how we measure employees, criminals, children, adults, & yes, even saints.