An Experiment
I want to warn you all about what’s going to happen so that you’re not shocked by what you find here on Monday, September 5 (Labor Day). It’s a holiday, so why not do something a little different? No doubt, many of you will think I’ve lost my mind for doing this, but on that day, you will see a guest post by a Christian. Calm down. Let me explain.
Chad (of button-pushing comment fame) and I have agreed to try out a post exchange. His post will appear on this site, and my post will appear on Eternal Revolution, the team blog to which he contributes. To my knowledge, nothing like this has been done before in the atheist blogosphere, so I have no idea how it will work out. Please confine your comments about what a bad idea this is and what a lunatic I am to this post so that the Monday comments can just be about what Chad has to say to us.
I’m doing this for several reasons…
1. Chad has demonstrated the ability to piece together an organized and thoughtful (if incorrect) argument.
2. The folks at Eternal Revolution seem remarkably tolerant of dissenting opinions. In fact, the site rules even explicitly state that atheists are welcome to comment as long as they remain civil.
3. It affords me the opportunity to speak directly to a group of theists, which I don’t often get.
4. The animosity many Christians have toward atheists is mostly fueled by misinformation about us and a lack of contact with us. By reaching out to them, I hope to demonstrate that we don’t have horns. Everyone knows that’s the Jews. (kidding)
I encourage everyone to participate in this unique exchange, but please be civil. Chad will be our guest, and he should be treated as such.
If any of you have points that you think I should make in my post, please share them. I can’t promise they’ll make it in, but I’m open to ideas.
~I AM~
August 31st, 2005 at at 11:56 am
ARGHHHH HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME?????
Im going to Hax0r your site!!!!!!!!!1111112
J/K. Seriously though, its sounds like an interesting idea. And you better have a direct link somewhere on this site to the post that you will make on their site.
So if I may ask, what was the inspiration for you two deciding to do a little “wife-swap” so to speak?
August 31st, 2005 at at 12:27 pm
I think that’s a great idea, I Am… I look forward to that post!
August 31st, 2005 at at 12:39 pm
Hey, that sounds like a great idea. you know I have been pondering the following idea for a while now and I wonder if it deserves at least some address by the atheist blogospere, and possibly might serve as a nice premise for a talk with a bunch of Christians:
In my conversations with Christians about the existence of God, I have gleamed one thing that I think a lot of atheists seem to miss. The value and meaning of life, the vigor and love that exists between humans, that drive to live and be moral, people assume, comes from the power of God. Atheists spend a lot of energy simply trying to debunk God and forget that the reason that believers hold on to him with such conviction is because they believe that those passions flow from God, that to disprove God is to disprove life or render it meaningless.
Our intentions should not be to simply debunk God, a pastime that I have noticed a lot of fellow atheist spend their days doing, but rather to show, that value, hope, love and morality are innately human constructs and we aren’t born with sin on our hands but rather a rational ability to process the world we live in that serves us if we don’t compromise our ability to think. A fully actualized human being makes decisions because he understands they they are in the best interests for himself and his family and not because he fears angering some supreme authority for acting on his ingrained desires.
Any thoughts? Has there been a well reguarded atheist that has addressed this before that I am unaware of? (yes, I’m fishing for some reading suggestions) Does that sound like a helpful suggestion for your post? Eh?
August 31st, 2005 at at 1:20 pm
You sound like my teachers and/or parents….”Chad will be our guest, and he should be treated as such”
August 31st, 2005 at at 1:20 pm
Good idea. I have a feeling people who watch a tolerant Christian blog are not the ones who think atheists are evil (bit instead just misguided, the way most atheist probably think of them). But hey, if it does even a bit of good, it’s worth the try.
August 31st, 2005 at at 1:22 pm
Seth, that’s funny.
I think it’s a cool idea. How nice am I required to be? Can I be a hard ass, provided I don’t call him stupid?
Do y’all imagine me in like black, spike heeled, leather boots stomping on the hearts of Christians? I fear I come across that way, but I swear, I’m nice (she says while hiding her horns).
August 31st, 2005 at at 1:51 pm
That’s a great idea. I’m with Brian on the subject.
I gave up years ago trying to explain and all that goes with it. Most people in my association don’t realize until I tell them that i do not believe in god. I never did like the idea that someone has to proselytize for their GOD. What ?? is he/she too impotent to do it?
A day of prayer? I say pray on your own time we got work to do. Maybe if they (our so called keaders) would just shut up and get busy DOING something then something would get done.
Sorry if I’m ranting. Too many hours of tv coverage of Katrina. Tell me one thing because I’m obviously missing something. Why is it considered miraculous when one child makes it to the roof and 4 other family members wash away? Sheesh!
JIM
August 31st, 2005 at at 1:56 pm
I think it’s a great idea. Good luck, I Am! We’ll try to do you proud here in the comment boxes.
August 31st, 2005 at at 1:59 pm
I AM great idea! I think this exactly the sort of open dialog that can defuse fundamentalist isolationism.
If it went well you could create a new team blog called Theist vs. non-Theist or some such. Then theist /non-theist pairs could pick discussion topics and post counter point articles side by side about current events etc.
Or, if not a dedicated blog, a blog carnival could be cool. Each time the moderator could pick a set of topics and bloggers would be invited to submit posts on both sides of the issue.
I’ll volunteer if there is any interest.
August 31st, 2005 at at 2:05 pm
Brian, The American Humanist Association (http://www.americanhumanist.org) has written allot about the issues you mention.
August 31st, 2005 at at 2:08 pm
This is a great idea. I can’t wait to read Chad’s post. Don’t forget to link your post I AM (which you won’t, you’re very thorough).
addict_no_more: I never pictured you in black, spike heeled, leather boots. But I will now and dream a little dream tonight.
August 31st, 2005 at at 2:36 pm
Sounds cool. Looking forward to it!
August 31st, 2005 at at 5:23 pm
I approve of the idea. Please continue.
August 31st, 2005 at at 5:36 pm
‘I never pictured you in black, spike heeled, leather boots. But I will now and dream a little dream tonight.’
Oh, I’m sure we all will!
I Am:
I’m looking forward to this, very interested to hear what both of you have to say.
August 31st, 2005 at at 5:40 pm
Might be interesting, but (not to sound too cynical) “What’s the point?”
That is, what does anyone hope to accomplish?
In regards to point #3 (It affords me the opportunity to speak directly to a group of theists, which I don’t often get.) What do you hope to accomplish?
What does Chad hope to accomplish?
See, I just went through this on that “Sounds Dreadful…” thread, over at the whacko-fundie site. My objective - honestly - was just to fuck with the theists for a while. I was nice, polite, honest, respectful…but I ever-so-gently took them to task, and they ended up deleting the entire *thread*!
I never really figured I would accomplish anything other than being banned, and pissing a few people off (despite my insane attempts to be nice), and that’s exactly what happened. Well…I’m not sure if I’ve been banned or not, but I wasn’t exactly made to feel welcome either.
Anyway…in my mind, the whole thing can be summed up real quick:
“Hey guys, any of you believe in Ahura Mazda, Allah, Brahma, etc?
No?
Hey, me neither! Guess we really do have a lot in common: Neither of us believe in the vast majority of “God claims” running around out there, and the reasons you don’t buy the Ahura Mazda, Allah, Brahma, etc “God claims” are probably the same reasons I don’t buy *any* of them.”
On that Christian site, I listed these twelve gods:
Ahura Mazda
Allah
Brahma
Christianity
Jah
Judaism
Kami
Krishna
Ngai
Siva
Vishnu
Waheguru
I pointed out that the theists on that site didn’t believe in 11 of the 12 gods that are alleged to be out there. Which, by my calculations, made them 91.666% atheist, just like me.
I then pointed out that I’d read somewhere that the Hindu’s had up to 330 MILLION gods, and asked them to consider what that did to their atheist percentage…
Went over like a [insert favorite failing analogy here]
Anyway, though it sounds fun, I just wonder what you (or Chad) hopes to accomplish?
August 31st, 2005 at at 6:26 pm
Great idea. Actually, I have been pondering making a joint blog with one of my Christian friends, though I never got around to doing it. Hope it works out, though.
August 31st, 2005 at at 8:12 pm
Excellent idea I AM. The only way for progress to happen is for the theists and the atheists to get out of their respective corners, and come talk. At least it’s showing that there are those on both sides willing to talk in a civil nature, which is hope enough to me.
September 1st, 2005 at at 12:23 am
Aaron:
Dude, don’t get all 1337 on me.
I’m pathologically defiant and a compulsive innovator. When I see something that hasn’t been done, I have to do it. What can I say? What’s the worst that could happen?
Brian:
I’m already planning to address issues along those lines. That was a very helpful comment, though. Thank you.
Seth:
Sit up straight. Chew your food. Don’t make faces; it might freeze that way.
Jim rrr:
The day of prayer has been getting under my skin, as well.
LBBP:
The carnival idea is a really good one. I wonder if you could get enough theists to participate. I’m not sure what their motivation would be. Frankly, I didn’t expect Chad to want anything to do with this little experiment, which is why I didn’t “call him out” in public, here in the comments. Let’s see how this goes. If it’s successful, I might pursue that concept, if you don’t mind.
Alpha Male:
I’m such an anal freak that calling me thorough is a wonderful compliment. Thank you.
Uberkuh:
The entire enterprise hinged on your approval, but I’m sure you know that. Thank you for your blessing, my liege.
rmadison:
I don’t know what I hope to accomplish beyond good atheist PR. We’ll find out. BTW, you really shouldn’t let that Candace Cameron thing get to you. We knew from the beginning that those people were in orbit.
September 1st, 2005 at at 1:30 am
Imagine away, gentlemen. Just remember, I’m a (happily) married woman… you’re gonna have to fantasize from afar!
Maybe the bed of flames and the spiked heels should get together…
September 1st, 2005 at at 1:33 am
Mmm… apparently Word Press emoticons don’t register kisses the same way my IM programs do. I wasn’t trying to growl at you guys. Though frankly, I suspect some of you would be into that.
September 1st, 2005 at at 1:43 am
Here is a guide to WordPress emoticons.
Also, be aware that any emoticon that beings a line (as above) will not be converted for some reason. If you want to do this, put a space in front of it.
September 1st, 2005 at at 5:24 am
Ugh, Ouch, Foul, Nightmare. There goes your bookmark. Say goodbye to your marbles. Why a Christian? Why not swap posts with a Scientologist? Why not a Witch Doctor? Satanist? Vampire? Crazy is Crazy. What a disappointment–the sad idealism of “evangelicals”. Leave those loony Christians alone–so we may demand they extend the same courtesy to us.
September 1st, 2005 at at 10:04 am
It will definitely be a different experience.
My usual reactions while reading this site are: shouts along the lines of “Word!”, “Yes!”, “No S#it!”…maybe even “Amen!” or “Preach!”; nodding my head in complete agreement; laughing (at humor); shock at ridiculous, meaningless atrocities committed in the name of belief; excessive smiling; and general feelings of accomplishment, excitement, fulfillment, motivation, and acceptance.
(Hmmm…almost sounds like church…)
My usual reactions while reading religious sites are: shouts along the lines of “WTF?!”, “Please!”, “Are you kidding?!”…maybe even “Jesus Christ!!”; shaking my head in complete bewilderment; laughing (at gulliblity/ignorance/desparation); shock at excuses/calls made for ridiculous, meaningless atrocities committed in the name of belief; excessive blank-staring; and general feelings of hopelessness, despair, anger, an utter disbelief.
I’ll go a step further and admit that the instant, comparitive imagery I get of religious individuals is of little kids playing out scenes from their favorite cartoons with toys, simple-minded primitives completely awestruck while timidly reaching out toward fire, a dog staring - head cocked - at a television, and/or retarded children throwing ice at the sun.
This is usually followed immediately by terrifying nightmares of complete disregard for human life or decency, intolerance, xenophobia, groupthink, judgement, arrogance, and oppression.
In moments of introspection I realize that I automatically lose respect for a person when I find s/he’s religious (or subscribes to the paranormal in general).
I need to do something about these knee-jerks. Apparently theists aren’t the only intolerent, judgemental, arrogant, elitists out there.
September 1st, 2005 at at 11:03 am
I AM Says: “BTW, you really shouldn’t let that Candace Cameron thing get to you.”
No worries. I’ve been doing this online debate thing for too damn long for ANY theist to get under my skin. Those guys can’t afford the rent to occupy space in my brain for more than a few, fleeting seconds.
Anyway, I guess my point (by asking you, “What do you hope to accomplish”) is that if *I’m* a theist, and I snoop around this site for a while before I jump in - cause that’s what I’d do - I’d inevitably find the Statement of (dis)Beliefs
http://evangelicalatheist.com/statement-of-disbeliefs/
And, upon reading them, I’d find statements #9, and #10
9. While religion played an instrumental role in helping civilization past its infancy, it has done more harm than good for the last several thousand years. It is in the best interest of mankind that religion be completely eliminated.
10. The two most dangerous religious movements in the world today are Muslim Fundamentalism and Christian Reconstructionism. The destruction of these philosophies is the highest priority.
And, if I were a theist, I’d take the “It is in the best interest of mankind that religion be completely eliminated” comment pretty damned seriously.
See, I agree with you that religion is (or can be) mental poison, and does (or can do) more harm than good. I think we’re on the same page.
However…I am under no illusions that humankind will EVER achieve that lofty goal. I don’t think it’ll ever happen. People are too fucking stupid, gullible, ignorant, fearful, superstitious, etc.
So, the way I see it, the best that I can hope for is some sort of cultural acceptance of atheism. That’s it. And, even though that is far, Far, FAR short of my ultimate goal, it’s still a damned tough nut to crack. Think of the hatred in this country towards gays, and then figure that it’s still MUCH more socially acceptable to be gay, than sans religious delusions.
OK, anyway…given that the theist now knows I view *his worldview* as mental sewage, and that I’d like to flush it down the drain of bad ideas, how likely is it that he’s really going to want to listen to me?
It’s like, on one hand, I’m saying “I despise religion”, but on the other I’m saying, “But I’ll be happy if we can just get along.”
And, to further confuse/muddle things, I truly support religious freedom. I’m a big fucking fan of the first amendment. I think a person ought to have the right to worship as he/she chooses, even if I think what he/she is doing is injecting mental turds into his/her brain.
But don’t you (theists) dare try to impose your fucked up religious bullshit on me. You go sacrifice a goat, refuse to let your kids learn about sex, close your eyes and wave your arms around all you want. But don’t think for a goddamned second that *I* need to do it as well.
Here I am as a co-evangelical-atheist, preparing to talk to evangelical-theists, and we’re 180 degrees apart on how we see the world. The only sensible solution is to meet in the middle…which is exactly where we are in the U.S. Religious freedom for everyone.
I believe that after much discussion, and much debate…I don’t see that anything will be accomplished.
[/cynicism]
But despite all that rambling, I’m still gonna join in the fray!
September 1st, 2005 at at 11:07 am
[Putting my theist shoes on…]
But don’t you (atheists) dare try to impose your fucked up, non-religious bull-malarky on me. You go gamble, swear, watch porn and vote for Democrats all you want. But don’t think for a gosh-darned second that *I* need to do it as well.
[/taking them off now - very uncomfortable]
September 1st, 2005 at at 11:27 am
I would talk to them about their difficulty interpreting metaphors and why taking religious symbols literally kills the meaning.
September 1st, 2005 at at 11:49 am
Hey, anyone feel like inserting a biological element to the debate? From everything I’ve read about the recent (5-10 years) explosion in neurological research, religion seems to have a very concrete basis in gross physical causality, specifically a section of the temoral lobe that has been informally labeled (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) the “God Spot”. When this section of the brain is artifically excited with electromagnetic vibrations (doing this to other well-mapped areas of the brain causes your leg to twitch, your eyes to close, your pleasure center to light up, etc.) the subject almost invariably experiences a “religious feeling”… a feeling that, as far as modern science can tell, is indistinguishable from what people feel when they sing the gospels, speak in tongues, practice deep meditation in the yogi or buddhisitic tradition, or even when they say a brief prayer in church. Certain illegal drugs excite this part of the brain too. As do rock concerts (seriously!).
So if religion has a phyical basis in that little bag of goo in our skulls, what does this imply to the notion of “eliminating” religion?
September 1st, 2005 at at 1:18 pm
Genghis Dirt,
Finding a God spot on the brain is an argument for materialism. We should keep those God spots around for a concrete reference to peoples crazy ideas about magical sky-ghosts.
I think brain surgery would only be applicable for those crazy religious moms who kill their children after they “get a message from god” (aka their brain god spot short circuits). Unfortunately, these scenarios seem more common nowadays.
September 1st, 2005 at at 2:13 pm
About the “God Spot”…I’ll agree that extacy is a biological contruct, but its within the context of understanding that makes belivers assume that the experiance they are having is from religion.
Imagine a car comes standard with a cup holder. If I choose to use it to hold a beer, that doesn’t mean that I can refer to every other simaler device as a “Beer Holder.” The context of my use of it shapes my understanding of it.
Just because others attribute a particular fucntion of the brain to religious experiances, doesn’t mean that thats what its for, just what its used for in their brain, not mine.
September 1st, 2005 at at 2:13 pm
So if religion has a phyical basis in that little bag of goo in our skulls, what does this imply to the notion of “eliminating” religion?
Who wants to eliminate religion? Personally, I want to eliminate irrational belief in sky-beings and other imaginary friends–at least among adults. I don’t have a problem with a reverential attitude toward the universe, or with the practice of symbolic ritual.
Concerts (and the enjoyment of art, generally) are a perfectly reasonable use of our time here on earth. Taking political action in the real world on orders from big daddy is not. And no, we are not irreversibly hardwired to do so.
September 1st, 2005 at at 4:06 pm
This sounds like it should be pretty good. Hopefully it will remain civil and both sides will listen to what each other has to say, although I must say that I really don’t view there being any legitimate philosophical debate between atheism and christianity. Any true philosophical debate would be whether a god exists at all. To know all the things that christianity pretends it knows is just utter nonsense, but I still look forward to the post.
September 1st, 2005 at at 7:30 pm
This is a great idea, and there should be a forum for this sorta thing. I volunteer to make it if that’s neccesary. I wait with baited breath to see if this produces anything more then “Your wrong and I’m right, HA HA HA.” from the C side over there. But if any actual discussion insues from this, then yes, there should be a theist-nontheist forum site.
As to what to include, there some great stuff in that post over on Aethsim Online about the meaning of life, could include a bit of that. . . maybe, just putting it out there. You could trace the evolution of religion. In my experience, these people aren’t stupid, just brainwashed. Enough overwhelming evidence usually does absolutely nothing, but perhaps they’ll stop being crazy, child-brainwashing theists, and more regular theists. Is that to hard?
This will be very interesting. . .
September 1st, 2005 at at 7:44 pm
[…] ants but I’m assuming that will be the general theme). At the same time, he will be posting an essay of mine at his blog that defends belief in the Christian faith. […]
September 1st, 2005 at at 8:43 pm
Spencer:
I’m still on your blogroll. Have I been forgiven? By the way, a 75%+ majority will never leave you alone.
DUB:
Word! Amen! If we don’t understand the Christians and talk to them, we have no chance of turning any of them around.
rmadison:
However…I am under no illusions that humankind will EVER achieve that lofty goal. I don’t think it’ll ever happen. People are too fucking stupid, gullible, ignorant, fearful, superstitious, etc.
Right. And we’ll never be able to make fire, or fly in a heavier-than-air machine, or defeat Smallpox, or catalog the human genome. Wait, we did? Oh.
Brian:
Kickass analogy. That’s the perfect explanation.
worldcitizen:
Who wants to eliminate religion?
Uh… me, but we seem to have very different definitions. Concerts? Really? I saw Nine Inch Nails twice, and that was NOT religion, my friend.
September 1st, 2005 at at 9:59 pm
I occasionally make a religion out of music…hell, I searched like 5 stores today for Billboard Magazine ’cause it has a thirty-something page feature on Paul McCartney….and I have no qualms with bowing down to him at the concert I’m going to this month.
Anyways. I tried to explain to my Christian friend yesterday about how religious indoctrination of kids is brainwashing; didn’t work. Rmadison, you’re descriptions fit the adult generation, but if we start getting religion out of kids’ lives, progress could be made.
September 1st, 2005 at at 10:04 pm
That’s why I’m so pleased about having several teenagers that frequent this site, Seth. People like you, Aeger, Pyro_Shark and Kele are our best hope.
September 2nd, 2005 at at 12:31 am
I’m a best hope. . . wow, no one has ever said that to me, ever, and that’s really sad.
And Seth: I was with yo when we were looking, and I can tell you, it was like 10 stores. And it was 90 degrees in the shade, and there was no shade. And Starbucks Strawberry’s ‘n Creme Smoothie is NOT the best thing to have while randomly searching for strange magazines that seem to follow us from store to store, jump into a rack, then, when we see it, jump out of the rack and scoot away. I had such a stomach ache. . . I hate Bilboard Magazine, it was playing with my mind. . . *shudder*
September 2nd, 2005 at at 6:13 pm
Hey Brian, I couldn’t agree more with your earlier comment. We definitely do need to do more to show that atheism is fully compatible with meaning, happiness, purpose and all the other things that make life worth living. Intellectual arguments against theism can only go so far; if a person believes that belief in God is the only thing that makes his life meaningful, then it’s unlikely in the extreme that any rational persuasion we can muster is going to sway him, no matter how compelling. On the other hand, I find that shattering those kinds of stereotypes, not just by argument but especially by example, can do more to change people’s minds about atheism than any number of reasoned arguments.
If you’re still searching for reading suggestions, might I engage in some minor self-promotion?
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/lifeofwonder.html
As for that Spencer fellow, he reminds me of someone who criticized an article of mine because I capitalized the word “God” when referring to the Judeo-Christian deity. Yes, that was his sole complaint. Some atheists, in my opinion, need to lighten up. Our cause is not going to collapse because some atheist says that a cathedral is a beautiful piece of architecture, or that he enjoys a famous symphony which happened to be composed for religious motives. If we’re going to critique religion, we should stick to aiming our critiques at the parts that matter, and not pathologically avoid anything that is even obliquely associated with it.
September 3rd, 2005 at at 12:31 am
Remember, our exposure to xians is a moot point. That’s most of our everyday lives.
Exposing xians to us…that’s the crux of the exchange.
How many of us finally read or heard something one day that actually manifested exactly what we’d been thinking? Someone else was thinking it too, AND managed to put it all together. It all made sense. To many, it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back.
Remember, they have moments of introspect too. I guarantee that something they read here will turn on some lights in their head.
The reason so many of us even bother with “preaching” to theists is because we have a feeling - we just know! - that somewhere deep down they have to get it. They just have to.
Because we did.
September 6th, 2005 at at 3:38 pm
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