See How Those Christians Love One Another
“First of all, Mr. Otero was strangled, a bag put over his head and strangled. And then I thought he was going down. Then I went over and strangled Mrs. Otero, and I thought she was down. Then I strangled Josephine, thought she was down, and they I went over to Junior and put the bag on his head. After that, Mrs. Otero woke back up, and you know, she was pretty upset, what’s going on? So I came back and at that point in time I strangled her with a death strangle at that time. ”
“OK. I moved — well after. I really can’t remember, judge, whether I had her tie him up or she tie him up. Anyway, I moved — basically I moved her to another bedroom, and he was already secure there by the bed. I tied his feet to the bedpost so he couldn’t run. I tied her in the other bedroom, and I came back to strangle him. And at that time we had a fight.”
“I went back to finish the job on Kathryn. And she was fighting. And at that point in time, I’d been fighting her and I just — and then I heard some — I don’t know whether I was basically losing control. The strangulation wasn’t working on her and I used a knife on her.”
“I told Mrs. Vian that I had a problem with sexual fantasies and I was going to tie her up and may that I might have to tie the kids up. And if she would cooperate with us — cooperate with me at that time. We went back. She was extremely nervous. I think she even smoked a cigarette. And we went back to one of the back areas of the porch, explained that I had done this before. ”
“So anyway, we went back to her bedroom. And I proceeded to tie the kids up and they started crying and got real upset, so I said, oh, this is not going work. So we moved them to the bathroom. She helped me. And then I tied the door shut. We put toys and blankets and odds and ends in there for the kids, to make them as comfortable as we could. We tied the — we tied one of the bathroom doors shut so they couldn’t open it, and we shoved — she went back to help me shove a bed up against the other bathroom door. And then I proceeded to tie her up. She got sick and threw up. I got her a glass of water, comforted her a little bit and then I went ahead and tied her up and put a bag over her head and strangled her.”
-Dennis Rader
BTK Killer
plead guilty to 1o counts of 1st degree murder
elected president of Christ Lutheran Church council after 30 years in church leadership
I can’t add anything to this.
~I AM~
June 27th, 2005 at at 11:02 pm
Lutherans, pssh.
Although, as a recovering ex-catholic, I’m not sure how to feel.
June 27th, 2005 at at 11:30 pm
I just had an indepth conversation with a very close (non-denominational christian) friend of mine that centered over this very topic. His basic argument was that these stories are isolated incidences. He agreed these stories reflected badly on the particular faiths involved in each, and ultimately, on religion in general. He said any group of people has some black sheep (I’m paraphrasing), whether religious, atheist, political, social, or other. I tried the two-pronged approach of saying he was using selective reasoning/ intellectual dishonesty, and that if every religion says every other is wrong, then it is more likely theirs is as well. I have a great amount of respect for this friend and it is not really a goal of mine to show him the light so to speak. He is very dedicated to his beliefs and actually READS and THINKS about bible verses. He said he asks the same from an atheist. Which, like I said in a previous post, bible quoting is my weakness. I countered with “I think you need to learn more science, psychology, philosophy, and anthropology”. The point is my friend represents what I believe to be a caring, open, and honest person. He is a good man, and a good christian. It is obvious to me his religion still loads on him excess baggage. By this I mean he admits of believing in most everything in the bible from Adam and Eve to the wrongness of homosexuality and the perversion of sex from porn and masturbation. At the very least, he is open to arguing with an atheist friend. I find it interesting the exchange between the two of us. We both think we are relatively intelligent people who are strong in their opinions and would like to help the other to learn the truth about the world. The problem is one of must be wrong. I told him this, and that it basically comes down to where you want to place your bet (Pascal’s wager). He said “What do I have to lose?” I told him “The truth, your time and money”. Neither of us will change.
June 28th, 2005 at at 2:17 am
Do you happen to know Rader’s relationship to the people he killed? Was it more of a random household or members of the same church? There didn’t seem to be any overwhelming religious reason to what he did, but so much for a good Christian…
And going with what boywonder said, I also have a friend that I talk a lot of religion and politics and stuff with but they tend to be a little less intelligent and a little more… well, stupid. We got in an argument about what happens when you fall while walking on water… but yeah, one of us must be wrong and we’re both convinced we’re the correct ones so the conversations can’t go that far. Oh well, at least we tend to agree on politics!
That’s also a very good response to Pascal’s Wager. I usually only say something along the lines of “the truth” but never think of time and money. I wonder what people would consider more… knowing “the truth” or wasting less time and money.
June 28th, 2005 at at 9:37 am
My response to Pascal’s Wager is that I would have to lie to myself, lose my integrity, to accept it.
June 28th, 2005 at at 10:25 am
The obvious problem with Pascal’s Wager is that, even if you use it to justify worship of God, you still might not be in the right denomination and will burn anyway. Besides, basing your faith on fear of punishment seems very shallow and insincere to me.
As for Dennis Rader, it’s a disturbing story, but I don’t think it proves anything. Yes, some Christians kill people, but so do some atheists and everyone else. Then again, those Christians who choose not to go around murdering are actually being hypocrites, as Jesus said, in Luke 19:27, “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
June 28th, 2005 at at 10:47 am
If anyone wants to read a good book about murders inspired by religious fundamentalism, check out Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. Its about two brothers who murdered their sister-in-law and her infant daughter because god told them to. As an extra bonus, its also a good book about the history of Mormonism, and some of its fundamentalist offshoots. I can’t count the number of times I found myself shaking my head in sadness/disgust as I was reading it.
I think it might also be something to recommend to an agnostic, as in, “See how crazy this is? Now, tell me how mainstream christianity is any different.”
June 28th, 2005 at at 11:27 am
Now here is the really, really sick part about all of this:
Mr. BTK would likely get into heaven despite his crimes! Boywonder, you should tell your religious friend about this problem. See, BTK accepted Christ into his heart and surely will repent and pray alot in prison. Prison populations are the most religious in society.
But good decent people like I AM, Boywonder, and myself, will burn in hell for ever (provided Christianity is true). What matters for salvation is not works, but faith. BTK has faith. We dont.
God’s moral code centers around feeding his ego and stroking his insecurities. As if God needs it! BTK has 1,000,000 times more chances getting into heaven than Ghandi for example.
I AM’s blog entry should teach us TWO things I think. They are:
1. Faith in an Abrahamic God (Christian, Jewish, Muslim) will not improve your morality.
2. Abrahamic morality should be rejected as immoral and harmful to humanity, for BTK is perfectly eligible for entry into heaven.
2.
June 28th, 2005 at at 11:46 am
Pascal’s Wager, while possibly being a good reason to *believe in* God (though, as some have mentioned above, you might guess wrongly and still burn), it is not a good argument for the *existence* of God. Just because there is a selfish reason for me to believe in God (fear of burning in hell for not believing) doesn’t make it any more likely God exists. It just makes it more likely I will believe in him.
The argument does not tip the scales for me, though. Partly because I think he would see through the whole “I’m only believing to escape hellfire” thing, but mostly because I see no evidence for his existence. If he wants me to burn for using my rational faculties, screw him; I wouldn’t want to worship someone like that anyway.
July 2nd, 2005 at at 9:47 pm
How extremely offensive that you would elect a man with a mental disorder to represent an entire group of people. You know, I think all atheists must be evil because many serial killers who have done horrible things don’t believe in God. And one mentally-disturbed “member” makes the whole group evil, correct?
July 2nd, 2005 at at 9:53 pm
Adam -
I read ‘Under the Banner of Heaven’ a few months ago and loved it – well, as much as you can ‘love’ a book about religious fundamentalism and corruption. I, too, found myself shaking through most of it, but mostly in disgust. Particularly frustrating are the men with dozens – even hundreds – of children who expect us to pay for their irresponsibility. The fundamentalists actually ENCOURAGE welfare fraud (and other offenses) as a means of doing God’s work – namely, sticking it to us “gentiles.” Not to mention that they can freely and openly sexually abuse their wives and daughters – in the few instances they’re hauled into court, they’re inevitably acquitted by the all-Mormon juries.
The fun thing about Mormonism, though, is that it’s fairly easy to discredit both the founders and their beliefs, since it’s such a new religion (with a long paper trail). Magical, disappearing golden plates? Pfffft!
-K
July 2nd, 2005 at at 9:56 pm
Michelle:
I said nothing of the kind. In fact, I said nothing.
July 3rd, 2005 at at 1:38 pm
Sorry…I guess I misread the title “See how those Christians love one another” and misinterpretted the implication you made with your description of Rader ” BTK Killer
plead guilty to 1o counts of 1st degree murder
elected president of Christ Lutheran Church council after 30 years in church leadership.” My bad.
July 3rd, 2005 at at 1:44 pm
You’re forgiven.